quote:

Originally posted by Filmore Holmes:

Well, it's about equally as sad in the cases of people like 50 Cent, who spend so much time bragging, you don't even know if they have any abilities outside of that.

I like rappers who have good flow and interesting things to say (i.e., Eminem sometimes, Mos Def, Common, Outkast, most of Wu Tang). In my opinion, 50 has neither.

Of course there is a difference between Paris and other famous people who have worked in their lives, but I don't think the cult of celebrity is really interested in that.

Sage Francis kills all mainstream rappers today. Long live Chuck D!!!

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Originally posted by Filmore Mescalito Holmes:

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Originally posted by GZAGenius1415:
This isn't a diss towards you or anything.....just felt like you shoulda done a little more research (and listening) before you posted that.

Here's my full review of 50 Cent's album.
I've done enough research. He's totally full of shit. Actually, I'm a huge hip-hop fan (I fell asleep listening to Black Sunday last night). Mainstream hip-hop has just gotten rediculous and it kills me. Here's the hip-hop type shit from my top 66 of 2005:
56. Tipper - Hip-Hop (Immergent/RIAA)
51. The Gorillaz - Demon Days (Virgin/RIAA)
49. Nobody & Mystic Chords Of Memory - Tree Colored Set (Mush/Rough Trade)
47. The Herbaliser - Take London (Ninja Tune)
43. 13 & God - Self-Titled (Anticon)
37. Blockhead - Downtown Science (Ninja Tune)
30. Buck 65 - Secret House Against The World (WEA/RIAA)
21. Danny Breaks - The Outer Dimension (Alphebet Zoo)
17. Alias & Ehran - Lilian (Anticon)
16. Sage Francis - A Healthy Distrust (Epitaph)
12. Nobody - And Everything Else... (Plug Research)
11. Quasimoto - The Further Adventures Of Lord Quas (Stones Throw)
07. Blackalicious - The Craft (Anti-/Epitaph)

Where's Blueprint? And Buck 65 is a total dick, but his music's pretty good. 50's shit is horrible now, I didn't think Get Rich or Die Trying was bad at all, and the leaked tracks off his Columbia (I think it was Columbia) record that never got released were pretty great, but as of recent he's been content with Dre's table scraps, whereas Dre seems to have recognized where the talent is and given his good beats to the infinitely better Game. But still, my favorite rap releases of last year are Cage, Quas, Cool Calm Pete, and Blueprint. Cadence Weapon dropped in Canada last year too, but I'm counting him for this year.

GZAGenius is pretty much right. If you don't like braggadocio, materialism (I mean that in the post-modern sense, meaning owning expensive possessions is awesome, and classic sense, that reality is only what's concrete, of the word) and maybe a REAL insight as to what poor/black people go through in the ghetto and what they aspire to if/when they get out of there, then maybe its best you keep a healthy distance from most mainstream rap music.

I really hate to sound racist here, but I'm assuming most of the people who have commented here are white and/or non-poor, possibly even the ones who are defending, or explaining, the hip-hop, black machismo in question. Maybe its because we don't live in the ghetto, and aren't black, and that prevents us from empathizing, or at least understanding or tolerating, a lot of rap music.

I'm a white person who has spent most of his life around black people of varying classes and, sometimes, snarling MCs like Young Jeezy and The Game bother me (and their edges are sanded off for mass consumption!). References to rape, brutal murder and personal stories of loss really affect me.

Sometimes even 50 gets a little too raw, especially with his pre-Aftermath work. In the end, though, guys like this are out to get money by selling a product, which is wanton sex and violence (rappers aren't the first to do it, guys!), and real artistry takes a back seat.

That's why, I imagine, Filmore doesn't like them and their black (and white!) fans hold them on their shoulders.

The opposite, to say the least, is true for someone like Doom, Madlib, Sage and so on. I don't think this is a matter of taste, I think this is a matter of integrity vs. economics.

Economics wins over integrity sometimes. And you know what, I think since 2001, rappers have officially become the new pop stars.

Rockists, all of you.

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Originally posted by Yay!:
GZAGenius is pretty much right. If you don't like braggadocio, materialism (I mean that in the post-modern sense, meaning owning expensive possessions is awesome, and classic sense, that reality is only what's concrete, of the word) and maybe a REAL insight as to what poor/black people go through in the ghetto and what they aspire to if/when they get out of there, then maybe its best you keep a healthy distance from most mainstream rap music.

Well, that only works until 50 Cent moves out of the ghetto, which he did many years ago. He lives in a multi million dollar mansion in a rich white suburb, yet he still raps about shooting people and "living in the hood." So he managed to escape the ghetto, yet still makes a massive profit off saying he lives there. Thus, people who actually live in the ghetto have less of a chance to get out and one of the only ways to get out remains being as violent and horrible as possible while perfecting rhymes about it in order to live the 50 Cent archetype created in his wake. He's enslaving his own people, making millions in the process, and I bet he wouldn't recognize a ghetto now if he got shot in one. He's a big, fat phoney. That's why I hate him. I love wanton sex and violence as much as the next man, but there has to be some sort of honest effort involved somewhere in the project and not just catalogue beats and "I love you like a fat kid loves cake" moronic high school rhymes.

Some of my fave. hip-hop:
Cypress Hill, pre-rap rock
NWA (seriously, what happened to these guys? don't let money change ya')
Eminem's 1st two albums
Paris (shits on 50 Cent)
Fu-Schnickens
Black Sheep
Snoop Dogg's Doggystyle (almost everything else really, really sucks)
Public Enemy (remember when a big clock passed as bling?)
Arrested Development 3 years, 5 months & 2 days In The Life Of
Grandmaster Flash Message (these guys actually lived in the hood)

Hip-hop and underground hip-hop are two different beasts entirely (with some minor exceptions). Just like I doubt many of the indie rock people throw Metallica on when their bored, hip-hop has evolved that there are many different forms that tailor to different tastes. Both parties have problems with the other rap group,(Blueprint could write a fucking paper on why he hates mainstream, and Eminem could probably write him back) but in the end it's a person-to-person thing as to which hip-hop you like (or if you like both or neither). Mainstream hip-hop has a lot to do with showboating, whereas underground tends to be complaining, or talking about your problems (BLATANT GENERALIZING, I know). Personally, I like the best out of both camps. However, I do not think that Aesop Rock or 50 Cent represent the best from either side. Drown those guys out with some Viktor Vaughn or some Jay-Z quick! But really, can't we all just get along?

^^^ I don't think it's that cut-and-dry. MF Doom is starting to make albums with pretty mainstream guys and he's an indie darling. Mos Def is mainstream and he raps about more important things than bling and bitches 24-7. Even Kanye isn't all bad. Plus, there's a ton of underground crunk that blows goats. I think the separation enters not between mainstream and indie but between honest, emotional humans and corrupt, half-assed products.

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Originally posted by Filmore Mescalito Holmes:
Well, that only works until 50 Cent moves out of the ghetto, which he did many years ago. He lives in a multi million dollar mansion in a rich white suburb, yet he still raps about shooting people and "living in the hood." So he managed to escape the ghetto, yet still makes a massive profit off saying he lives there. Thus, people who actually live in the ghetto have less of a chance to get out and one of the only ways to get out remains being as violent and horrible as possible while perfecting rhymes about it in order to live the 50 Cent archetype created in his wake. He's enslaving his own people, making millions in the process, and I bet he wouldn't recognize a ghetto now if he got shot in one. He's a big, fat phoney. That's why I hate him. I love wanton sex and violence as much as the next man, but there has to be some sort of honest effort involved somewhere in the project and not just catalogue beats and "I love you like a fat kid loves cake" moronic high school rhymes.

Of course, you're right on many counts, but most rappers talk concurrently about their hood life to seem tough and the life they want (and presumably have or are going to have) to seem cool, or rich. These lives, both of which are hyperbolic like a motherfucker when plugged into black machismo, often overlap. A LOT.

50, from his first two albums, talked more about the hood life because that's all he really knew (early songs like "Fuck You," "How to Rob," etc.)-- they weren't good but they were unquestionably sincere. He was much more raw. His latter two albums, the two we all know so well, have had macho posturing, but its more about booty and jewelry with a little violence (maybe more like danger) on top. After all, that's what his life mostly is now. He got a million-dollar advance for "Get Rich," after all. Before he even cut an album, he was a millionare, essentially. Yet before Aftermath, he was still pretty raw. Both his danger, struggle and boastfulness were all true at that point in his life. He was at a stage of transition. "Get Rich or Die Trying" was his ethos. Instead of dying, he got rich.

Even now, I could almost guarantee you that 50 by proxy of his friends, family and collaborators in G-Unit have connections to the streets and people who died instead of getting rich, much less free. When you grow up and struggle, that struggle, that grit doesn't leave you. 50 will never, ever, EVER be sophisticated or affluent or deep or abstract like you would rather see. He'll forever be survival mode because he was like that for 30 years of his life.

50's not fake, he really did get shot. And he may not necessarily deserve artistic cred for that, maybe in ignorant circles sure, but in any circle its a good marketing ploy. He's just a businessman making profit off of the only thing he knows so he doesn't have to eat canned tuna for the rest of his life. He took the first opportunity he had. Like Atmosphere said, and I'm paraphrasing, its good 50 Cent is popular because that means a couple hundred less black people are going to bed hungry today.

In this same vein, would you criticize a Sudanese refugee of being a phoney because he was born in America, but still talks about the struggles of his people, singing about it as an artist? Akon is from Senegal and he talks about African poverty. How about M.I.A., who also talks about violence and strife? How about System of a Down, whose lead singer preaches about the Armenian genocide of the 1910s and its Holocaust-like denial by the Turkish government, but never actually lived in Armenia or experienced genocide, only had the tales told to him by his grandfather? Are these people phoneys? If they're passionate about what they're saying, and may not have lived it, how fake is that, really?

You may have all these different opinions on those artists, how "real" they are, but the fact is they're as real as you or I.

How far does your quest go for "reality" or "integrity"? You, or I, may have a finely callibrated microscope for others, but can we turn that microscope on ourselves? (That's a paraphrased line from "Silence of Lambs," didn't know if you caught that.) How real are you?

My overall idea is this: Lighten up a little. Just listen to the damn thing. Have some fun. You're no better or worse than this stuff.

Sorry about all the ad-homonym "you" stuff, but I wanted to drive my point home. I honestly don't mean to be a dick.

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Originally posted by Yay!:
50's not fake, he really did get shot. And he may not necessarily deserve artistic cred for that, maybe in ignorant circles sure, but in any circle its a good marketing ploy.

Exactly. Which is why he probably got one of his friends to shoot him.

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Originally posted by Yay!:
In this same vein, would you criticize a Sudanese refugee of being a phoney because he was born in America, but still talks about the struggles of his people, singing about it as an artist?

If that refugee is making 25 million dollars a year from it and spending it all on mansions and SUVs, you bet your ass. How does that help anyone? It's not like 50 Cent is trying to make the hood better; he's just profitting off the sad fact of its existance. [In fact, he threatens anyone who tries to make the hood a more humane place to live, "It ain't good to do good in my hood/ (sound of a gun taking a human life) You know not to do good now."] He's as evil as a sweatshop. Sure, 100 less black people will be hungry tonight at 50's mansion, but the next generation of young blacks are now screwed to try and live the life 50 espouses yet is totally removed from.

"Let [white people] talk! What are they saying that is different from what their grandfathers said? What are they doing or trying to do to us that their grandfathers didn't try to do to us? But what is different is what we are doing to ourselves."
- Bill Cosby at Jesse Jackson's 33rd Annual Rainbow/PUSH Coalition Conference

I'm also pretty sure a refugee would be trying to expose how horrible that life is and not just bragging about killing people, getting shot, fucking bitches, making money, and doing drugs. Who brags about being poor and homeless?

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Originally posted by Filmore Mescalito Holmes:
Who brags about being poor and homeless?

This is a great observation, FMH.

I don't have much of anything to add. You two are way out of my league on the subject. I did, however, just read an interesting article in the current New Yorker Magazine.

Now Playing: "Sprout and the Bean" Joanna Newsom The Milk-Eyed Mender <-- representin' freak-folk!

Brilliant read. There are too many quotables there. Hip hop is a business now, not just a genre.

quote:

Originally posted by Filmore Mescalito Holmes:
Exactly. Which is why he probably got one of his friends to shoot him.

This charge is so silly I won't respond to it, except to call it "silly." It's silly. See? See what I did there? I called it silly. Silly. It's silly.

Silly.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Filmore:
If that refugee is making 25 million dollars a year from it and spending it all on mansions and SUVs, you bet your ass. How does that help anyone?

Again, relativism. If that refugee is buying them from Africa or AU-based companies or from corporations with African-American CEOs, then he is helping his people. Jay-Z recent announced a boycott on Cristal because the owner, in an interview with Fortune magazine, pooh-poohed hip hop's affinity for it. That's beyond just buying power, its black power (in the corporate world, at least).

And besides, if this guy wants something better in his life, "better" in the relative sense for HIM, who are you to criticize him or his lifestyle and him, you? Like I said last post, we are no better or worse than these people. It's all just ways to live. We're all just flesh and blood. The crusade, like this one, of serious music critics against anyone who isn't serious themselves, about their craft and their ethics, who isn't 99 or 100 percent virtue... its so, so silly.

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Originally posted by Filmore:
It's not like 50 Cent is trying to make the hood better; he's just profitting off the sad fact of its existence. [In fact, he threatens anyone who tries to make the hood a more humane place to live, "It ain't good to do good in my hood/ (sound of a gun taking a human life) You know not to do good now."]

Again, a relative term. He could be talking about cops trying to what they think is "good," kicking down a paranoid black kid running through a yard, when that kid isn't necessarily doing anything wrong, just trying to get home. He could also just be sending us the general message of the hood saying "leave us alone." I'm not saying I approve of what he's saying as surface or as message, but you don't KNOW what he means. His sociocultural impact as an artist is horrid, but the reality is he's a warrior. He's hip hop's guard dog, its first line of defense. That's his part and he plays it well.

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Originally posted by Filmore:
He's as evil as a sweatshop. Sure, 100 less black people will be hungry tonight at 50's mansion, but the next generation of young blacks are now screwed to try and live the life 50 espouses yet is totally removed from.

He's not totally removed from it. The point I made last post I think makes that really clear. You'd have to know him, though, to know that for sure. And yes, the majority of this (or the next) generation is pretty fucked, but they always have been, and little old 50 Cent isn't going to make things significantly better or worse.

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"Let [white people] talk! What are they saying that is different from what their grandfathers said? What are they doing or trying to do to us that their grandfathers didn't try to do to us? But what is different is what we are doing to ourselves."
- Bill Cosby at Jesse Jackson's 33rd Annual Rainbow/PUSH Coalition Conference

He ain't wrong, and its not very well said. Regardless, Cosby is a Republican. A KNOWN Republican. It's hard for me to take him seriously. You could choose a better quote.

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I'm also pretty sure a refugee would be trying to expose how horrible that life is and not just bragging about killing people, getting shot, fucking bitches, making money, and doing drugs. Who brags about being poor and homeless?

You're confusing bragging about a life that is mostly fiction, lamenting a life that is mostly non-fiction and how much these variables overlap. And white indie rock hipsters, or any music and culture surrounding it that prides itself on economic independence and ethical integrity (IDM, whatever), implicity brag (or make the best of, thereby glamorizing) about being poor and, while not homeless, definitely itinerant or gypsy-like.

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Originally posted by pak:
Brilliant read. There are too many quotables there. Hip hop is a business now, not just a genre.

Hip hop was never a genre, it was a culture. It still is, its just more of a corporate culture now.

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Originally posted by Yay!:

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Originally posted by Filmore:
If that refugee is making 25 million dollars a year from it and spending it all on mansions and SUVs, you bet your ass. How does that help anyone?

Again, relativism. If that refugee is buying them from Africa or AU-based companies or from corporations with African-American CEOs, then he is helping his people. Jay-Z recent announced a boycott on Cristal because the owner, in an interview with Fortune magazine, pooh-poohed hip hop's affinity for it.

That was Jay-Z. Jay-Z is okay. 50 Cent is merely audio titillation. Deal with it.

So arbitrary. '96 Jay isn't too different from '06 Fiddy.

Not arbitrary. Maybe one day 50 Cent will be as average as Jay-Z, but right now he's an evil prick. Neither of these guys is Manute Bol.

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Starbucks used to sell Yo La Tengo...now they sell that stupid girl band.

For the record, starbucks sells:

Who's Next
Bootleg Bob Dylan
Revolver
Neko Case.