I didn't know it was physically possible not to like the New Pornographers.

Smen, your argument requires the presupposition that mainstream success is a constant function, unaffected by time. It also assumes homogeneity of taste and equal exposure. It also assumes that people's opinions are not affected by the people around them, and that everybody is basing their expectations on the same music.

Say what you will about critics being in a bubble. All I know is, I listened to a bunch of albums without knowing what the critics thought. Then when I looked, the ones the critics liked tended to correlate more with my tastes than the ones with mainstream success.

Another flaw in your argument: Look at the albums, released twenty years ago, that are still popular. Are they the ones that got mainstream success, or do they tend to be the ones that got more critical success? What gets more plays now? New Kids On The Block, or Prince? What gets more plays now? Macarena, or OK Computer? They came out in the same year, and Macarena was more successful at the time.

And by the way. I defy you to defend 'My Humps'. The Black Eyed Peas make Britney Spears look like Mozart.

I think all Smen is saying is that indie groups that are still on indie labels are probably not as good as groups that started on indie labels and improved to the point where major labels want to sign them (correct me if I'm wrong).

We all like bands like Radiohead, Wilco, and the White Stripes, and at one time those bands jumped to a major label. Smen is saying that those bands are better than the bands that just stay on the indie labels, and while I would agree with that, I would disagree that most things that are on major labels are better than most things that are on independent labels (and I think Smen would join me in that dissent).

Hmm...yes, I would say that the absolute best indie groups, in general, eventually go to major labels.

If that's what Smen was trying to say, I won't contest that. But there's so much crap on major labels, and so much crap on indie labels, it's hard to absolutely compare. You have to filter. And some great indie bands aren't close enough to mainstream to make the leap.

I could be wrong, and he'll come back here to comment anyway, but I don't think S likes Radiohead, Wilco or the White Stripes that much.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobthespirit:
Hmm...yes, I would say that the absolute best indie groups, in general, eventually go to major labels.

If that's what Smen was trying to say, I won't contest that. But there's so much crap on major labels, and so much crap on indie labels, it's hard to absolutely compare. You have to filter. And some great indie bands aren't close enough to mainstream to make the leap.

I don't know Bob, I think if you take the absolute best stuff indie labels have to offer and put it along side the best majors have to offer, it's a pretty even match up...I don't think the major labels automatically win out. Lots of consistantly terrific artists (Guided By Voices & Pavement for example) never made the jump to a major label.

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:

quote:

Originally posted by Bobthespirit:
Hmm...yes, I would say that the absolute best indie groups, in general, eventually go to major labels.

If that's what Smen was trying to say, I won't contest that. But there's so much crap on major labels, and so much crap on indie labels, it's hard to absolutely compare. You have to filter. And some great indie bands aren't close enough to mainstream to make the leap.

I don't know Bob, I think if you take the absolute best stuff indie labels have to offer and put it along side the best majors have to offer, it's a pretty even match up...I don't think the major labels automatically win out. Lots of consistantly terrific artists (Guided By Voices & Pavement for example) never made the jump to a major label.

I absolutely agree. Just, the ones who put hooks in their songs tend to.

I agree with many of your points made here, and I think you've got mine. Mark, I love the White Stripes, I think they are one of the best bands out there, period, these days. Radiohead and Wilco not necessarily my cup of tea, but entirely well made, high quality music regardless, and certainly superior to GBV and Pavement if we're making the indie vs major comparison with bands mentioned in this thread recently. Bob, my only defence for BEP is that they do fill a niche in the music world, even if it is a rather putrid niche. Your points about Prince vs NKOTB etc, are valid, I think a medioce album from a consistently brilliant artist will definately be remembered more fondly than a fast rising, fast fading pop sensation. However, I'm talking about rock here, not pop music, and those were all massively successful albums anyway, of course Macarena would sell more than OK Computer that year, but over the course of their respective careers Radiohead will make more money off it in the long run. I'm not into using comparisons to pop acts and measuring rock success against pop success, although as has been said earlier, the lines are pretty blurry in these days of Clear Channel monopoly. I guess I also have a bit of a tainted opinion with where I live, Muchmusic has always been pretty good about playing a broad scope of bands, and specialty shows like The Wedge give lots of time to indie rock artists. Our radio stations are occassionally open-minded, and living in the city I get the college stations pretty clearly. There are also tons of excellent independent record stores, which makes the big retailers here work harder to compete. I do sympathize with anyone who has a difficult time getting access to a broad scope of music, and being able to truly find out for themselves what music does it for them. Now I feel like I'm sounding pretentious so I'll just casually dismount from my high horse and go watch some basketball!

Dubs, I interpret that quote the same way! Glad you also enjoy it!

This was a great discussion.

Let me add this, and this alone:

At least half of the active "indie" bands/artists today (who make water-treading music critics often prefix with indie-/dance-/new-wave/post-/Brit-/experimental-/noise- and end with -rock, -pop, -hardcore, or -punk) borrow very heavily from a pool of certain European and American bands that have made some influential pop music in the past 20 to 30 years (this list, of course, excludes the obvious Beatles, Stones, Kinks or Beach Boys as influencers):

From Europe: Gang of Four, Wire, Joy Division, New Order and The Smiths

From America: The Pixies, R.E.M., Fugazi, The Replacements and Sonic Youth.

That's about the bulk of it. Those ten bands have helped spring more than half, maybe more than three quarters, of indie bands today. Sure, other music comes to mind (the Talking Heads, for example) but what you've got to ask yourself is this: Why do so many people in underground music seem to be drawing from the same springs, the same groups of artists, I just referenced? Is it the same human, artistic nature that mainstream artists have to draw from U2, Red Hot Chili Peppers or Metallica?

After all, it is a recent development in the indie world, being so painfully, obviously stifled for new ideas. Only over the past five years has there been this kind of exhuming of post-punk, synth-pop and so on.

Thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by Yay!:
After all, it is a recent development in the indie world, being so painfully, obviously stifled for new ideas. Only over the past five years has there been this kind of exhuming of post-punk, synth-pop and so on.

Thoughts?

I wouldn't say it's a new development. The more you know about the history of popular music, you'll see that the number of truly groundbreaking bands is far less than the number of bands that are more-or-less imitators. Music is rarely created in a vaccuum, and even some of those influential artists you mentioned stole ideas from artists who came before them. The majority of bands we listen to are simply putting a new spin on an old idea. It's been this way for decades.

My favourite is "Apologies to the Queen Mary" by Wolf Parade

I think "The Woods" may be the best of these, but I still voted for Wolf Parade just because I listen to "Apologies to the Queen Mary" quite frequently and I wasn't sure. I'm going to listen to Sleater-Kinney again. For those unfamiliar, start with "Dig Me Out".

How the heck did this thread get resurrectred???

I voted for Z. I liked Illinois quite a bit in 2005, but I never listen to it anymore. I think I listened to Apologies to the Queen Mary so much that I'm kinda tired of it now. That's unfortunate because it really is a good record. Z just barely inches by it now.

Commercial success will never be a measurement of musical or artistic quality, because, commercial success reflects the tastes of the masses, and the masses don't appreciate music as an art form the way others(such as the type of people usually on this site) do. I've only met two other people in my entire life that love music the way I do. To most people however, music is just another medium, entertaining and catchy. To me, and many of you I suspect, music is the fuel of my soul, far more than entertainment. There is totally a difference in the way people are capable of judging music as an art form. What makes any music "good" is based largely on cult apathy anyways, something that mainstream exposure often detracts from in indie circles.

I voted for Wolf Parade, but The New Pornographers were a close second place.

I'm glad I made this thread. Does anyone who posted, especailly about two years ago, have any changes of heart? It's very interesting to me because people act like Illinois[e] is a super-great album, and maybe it is, but right now, it's sitting in third place. Plus, it's just fun to "hear the earlier voices" of longtime members.

quote:

Originally posted by mark f:
Does anyone who posted, especailly about two years ago, have any changes of heart?

I said Wolf Parade two years ago, and that's what I'd still say. Of the five, I really think it's the best.

in this order-
apologies to the queen mary
twin cinema
z
illinoise
the woods

What I said in this thread a year ago was Z and that’s the one I would still go with. I do think it is the best of the five available choices.

My favorite of the albums is Illinois, but they're all pretty good. The Woods is fantastic (second favorite here) and Z, although it's not my favorite My Moring Jacket, is great album.