Well, it IS FOX, but "The Simpsons" and "24" count for something.

Hmm..I now think 24 is a good show, but I wouldn't call it 'Great'. But, then again, it'd also take a whole lot to get me to call an action flick 'great'.

The thing about the whole torture thing is...there's a world of difference between 'There is definetely a terrorist out there who is trying to kill thousands of people and has the capability to do so in a few hours' and 'There is a terrorist out there who wants to kill us at some vague undefined point in the future and we don't know anything specific or if they even have the means'.

The former is the situation that shows up on the show, and the latter is the one that generally happens in real life.

And, the effects of torture in the show are scripted according to giving out the right information just at the right time to keep the show suspenseful and moving forward.

So...given that 24 is self-consciously a popcorn flick, I think it's odd to draw philosophical conclusions from it.

Okay, who here DOESN'T think that when they find out where the terrorists are going to release the nerve gas, Diane Huxley's house will be right in the area?

I thought they were gonna release it at the Western White House.

Maybe one cannister will be released at the western white house, and another will be released right down the block from Diane Huxley.

I took Kim's character development to be moving Jack in the direction of wanting to start a new life with a new family.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobthespirit:
Maybe one cannister will be released at the western white house, and another will be released right down the block from Diane Huxley.

I took Kim's character development to be moving Jack in the direction of wanting to start a new life with a new family.

I don't think they're going to bring Diane Huxley back Bob. Jack Bauer's whole character arc this season seems to have to do with reconnecting with his old life, meaning Kim and Audrey. I'm guessing one or both of them are going to be in some kind of danger in the next few episodes, where he'll need to do something drastic in order to save them.

Okay...

Audrey, Kim, the Huxleys, and the president are all in danger.

He might be able to save them all, or none of them.

And the question is..what order will he try to save them in?

The only other 24 I've seen some of is the first season where they kept randomly putting the daughter and the wife in danger, so I can't see the Huxleys getting off this easy. Maybe I'm wrong..maybe they'll be put in danger, he'll save them, and then he'll have to choose between his old life and his one from the previous year. That's what 24 seems to be about...questions with no easy answer, with a short time limit to answering them. You can let 10 people die for sure or you can risk letting 100 people die. What do you do? You have thirty seconds.

But, I have a feeling Kim is going in the direction of cutting ties with her father. Then where would he go?

That's true Bob, but the other thing about "24", at least lately, is that it's about introducing NEW characters, NEW dangers, NEW plots, so what seems important now may not come home to roost until the end of the season...or next season...or later.

I am rather dismayed that much of the discussion here has been intellectualized regarding the tantalizing guessing game about who's going to die next and that there are only two, maybe only one character that's safe. Instead of transforming 24 into a television drama that focuses on the likely nature of the real themes in this action series, nuclear terror, biological terror that is occurring on our doorstep, we've been sanitized. Instead of actually caring about the characters enough to complain about their demise, we're eager to see which one is killed off. In today's world of uncertainty and questionable moral compass of our government and the public, 24 has had in the past a least a thread of decency, certainty amid the shock value of major characters dying off. Yet if all the scriptwriters can do is turn the mounting death toll into an intriguing guessing game for its viewers for ratings, then I think 24 has lost its integrity as a great series. Perhaps, I'm a romantic, idealist, but I am becoming more attached to hope and even false optimism of survival and living and redemption instead of anticipation of death and the mortality rate. Our country has enough of it real life with real people, real countrymen and women dying on behalf of terror. We don't need to make a dramatic series out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by tabuno:
Our country has enough of it real life with real people, real countrymen and women dying on behalf of terror. We don't need to make a dramatic series out of it.

When it comes to TV, I think art imitates life. And I don't think we have been rooting for who dies next, I think we have been speculating who may be in danger in the coming episodes. There's a difference. The show is what it is, and it has had Jack Bauer having to confront situations where his friends or loved ones may be in danger. In this sense, Jack reminds me of a repo man: while ordinary people spend their life avoiding tense situations, Jack Bauer spends his life getting into tense situations Another thing is I don't believe 24 just indiscriminately kills off its characters for the sake of getting them off the show. IMO, the deaths of the "major" characters have come within the context of the show and the story. They didn't just have Michelle and Tony get hit by a car or something. I also don't think that we're indifferent to our favorite characters getting killed on the show. I don't believe people were cheering when Palmer and Michelle died. And I think a lot of people were genuinley bummed when Edgar died, I know I was. 24 is a television show, and being such, it has to make choices about characters to move the storylines forward. Jack is alive because it is a TV show and he's the main character, but if there is one thing the show has tried to illustrate, it's that no one is safe and anything can happen at any time. Anyway, I think I'm rambling at this point, but I don't see it as bloodthirsty to speculate where the storyline is going and whom may be in danger.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: PRG,

Tabuno, if you are one of those people who would rather not think about all the violence and terrorism taking place in the world today, 24 is probably not for you.

As I've said before, 24 without the death and chaos would be an incredibly lame and unrealistic show. But just because people die, it doesn't mean the show doesn't offer hope. Even though things rarely go smoothly, CTU does always manage to stop the major terrorist threat.

As far as us speculating on the death toll, I'm pretty sure that's because we're a bunch of nerds on a message board. I don't think that's the only reason any of us watch it or the reason most people watch it.

Has anybody ever noticed the 24 characters' bladders of steel?

24 is a fun TV show. It's not supposed to be a representation of reality, it's supposed to be a caricature of reality. Like a soap opera, but with terrorists.

Heck, the president makes decisions without first consulting his advisors, consulting his PR guys, creating committees to determine whose fault the situation is, consulting his constituency, and considering what effect each choice might have on his poll numbers! That in itself is unrealistic.

PRG, paxsoprano, ericg75 great comments. Thanks for your considerate responses. I'm delighted to have had the opportunity to exchange messages.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobthespirit:
Heck, the president makes decisions without first consulting his advisors, consulting his PR guys, creating committees to determine whose fault the situation is, consulting his constituency, and considering what effect each choice might have on his poll numbers! That in itself is unrealistic.

That would take too much...time

Tabuno, if not taking a popcorn action series seriously enough to acknowledge the idea of it being an example of 'art imitates life' or somehow representative of the current terror threat in real life is a terrible enough sin to be backhandedly omitted from the kudos...

Well, then I would not recommend any movie or TV series to you except for political dramas.

I just think that there are a lot of movies and TV series that are very good entertainment, but get overanalyzed. You say 'Philosophical allegory', I say 'Looking for shapes in clouds'. The Matrix is a big example of this. My cousin can go on for an hour about metaphysical themes and Christianity, analyzing them with tools of modern philosphy, I say 'It's a fun movie'. 24 is another. It's very entertaining, and not applicable to real life in any non-superficial way.

That's just how I feel about 24. So, when I think about 24, I speculate where the rollercoaster ride is going to take me next.

I'm sorry you don't feel that's an 'Intelligent comment'.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bobthespirit,

quote:

Bobthespirit posted:

Tabuno, if not taking a popcorn action series seriously enough to acknowledge the idea of it being an example of 'art imitates life' or somehow representative of the current terror threat in real life is a terrible enough sin to be backhandedly omitted from the kudos...

This specific reply is disconcerting because the recent direction of 24 isn't about 'art imitates life,' its about a disturbing projection of real life in the near future where most of our cherished heros are killed off. Unlike real life where perhaps one in ten Americans know of someone directly involved in the Iraq War and I guess one in two-hundred and fifty have been directly impacted by the death of someone involved in Iraq, 24 is expressing that terror is about increasing death toll of those we hold most dear. Such dire predictions are not so much entertainment to come home to as numbing, desensitization towards one of the most important, vital issues of our times.

quote:

Originally posted by tabuno:
This specific reply is disconcerting because the recent direction of 24 isn't about 'art imitates life,' its about a disturbing projection of real life in the near future where most of our cherished heros are killed off. Unlike real life where perhaps one in ten Americans know of someone directly involved in the Iraq War and I guess one in two-hundred and fifty have been directly impacted by the death of someone involved in Iraq, 24 is expressing that terror is about increasing death toll of those we hold most dear. Such dire predictions are not so much entertainment to come home to as numbing, desensitization towards one of the most important, vital issues of our times.

Yeah, but if you actually work in the Defense/Intelligence industry, my guess is that those numbers skyrocket. 24 is focusing on a small group of people working in a very dangerous field. The reality is that those people die. I guarantee you if you talk to people working in Intelligence, Law Inforcment, etc., they've lost people very close to them in the line of duty.

I think 24 actually does a pretty good job of showing some of the complexities in the war on terror as well. Rarely does it ever become propaganda for any political viewpoint.

That strikes me as a little narrow minded there.

For years and years, action thrillers have shown people getting casually killed and forgotten, people making difficult decisions that people's lives depend on, and people we care about getting killed.

The only thing different about 24 is that it uses as plot devices themes that are currently making the headlines. Just like every generations action flicks did in some form or another. Having terrorists trying to release nerve gas on the population is no different than having communists hatching a plot to destroy us with nuclear weapons fourty years ago. Terrorism is this generation's big scare -- so it's the threat action writers put into their plots.

24 is fiction. People viewing it are aware it's fiction. Watching it does not desensitize people to similar situations in real life -- because people are not so stupid that they're unaware of the difference between reality and fiction. No matter how many fictional characters are killed off on television shows, no matter how much you like them, it will not numb the impact on your life if somebody you know is killed.

Sometimes an action thriller is just an action thriller. And 24 is a damn good one.

I also find it interesting that you associate the situation in 24 with the situation in Iraq. The villains in 24 are fighting for the independence of their country from Russia and striking out at their allies because they lost the opportunity to attack Russia. The Iraq War is a sectarian conflict about political and ideological control of their region. These are two completely different situations, only as similar to each other as any other armed conflict in recent history.

ericg75 and Bobthespirit good comments. I don't usually watch television series, especially action thrillers. Instead, I've been drawn to Ally McBeal and X-Files, even Buffy: The Vampire Slayer. What I have enjoyed and hope to continue to enjoy regarding 24 is the balance that 24 has managed between its great action plots, intelligent dialogue, fabulous characters in the face of terror and up until now the optimistic hope that that its all worth it. Yet if the personal sacrifice and most of the characters get killed off, the series deflates one of the primary reasons I've watched this series - that of hope, that at least some of the "good" people will survive. I doubt don't that members in the real intelligence community die, the numbers may even be higher then the American public realizes(who knows), but the way the major characters have been depleted in 24 seems beyond even the fictionalized, reasonableness standard. Personally I don't want to watch week after week being frustrated, stressed out by the bad guys and then having to watch literally almost every character I cared about die off. It's not all about the action thrills for me. For me a good action drama also cares about its characters and allows for some semblance of continuity, security, some solid base from which to enjoy a series. Personally it's not entertainment to witness death and destruction for those I've come to care about week after week without the hope that after the series concludes that after the personal sacrifices there will be some characters left standing who can appreciate and honor what those deaths meant.

Without getting tied into this ongoing argument (I'm with bob that it's just entertainment, and I don't get too emotionally involved with fictional characters), I should point out that Dennis Haysbert (who played President Palmer) lodged a similar complaint in recent interviews. His complaint was about killing off beloved characters, although his issue was that, by killing Palmer, you've killed off one of the strongest and most honorable black characters on TV. The implication was, I think, a racial one. But I think the killing of David Palmer had everything to do with the imaginary world of 24 and nothing to do with race.

I will agree with Tabuno on at least one front: if the body count keeps climbing, it might make it harder to have someone left to root for on the show. But if the rumors are true, 24 may not feature ANY of the folks from the previous seasons next year. There was a big rumor that Edward Norton was proposed as the new lead, but Fox vehemently denies it.