You're obviously still one of the people that doesn't read before they respond. How can you RESPOND without even knowing what you're responding to?

Friends was written by the same people, chump. So, how about let's try that again.

Friends? Yes. They even title some of the episodes written by Friends alumni the same way "The One Where..." you knew that was a Friends thing, right? And no, I'm not guessing based on things like that. It's all on imdb.

Wild Hogs? Yes. My Wife and Kids? Yes. THE GOLDEN GIRLS? YES. SCIENTOLOGY PET PROJECT MY NAME IS EARL? YES.

I can't believe I backed off a little a while back. FUCK this show. Fuck this show in its fucking smug multicolored California-bred ass.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BlackGravel,

?

I saw what you said. I understand that they have the same writers. However, that does not make AD the same show, it doesn't even make AD a similar show.

Chump? Yes.

Having the same writers writing two different programs doesn't make them similar programs? Can you give me one parallel example?

I called it Friends but with Family because the fact that such a fawned-over critical darling as AD could be produced by the same minds that produced such a deeply uncool and generally-recognized-as-lame show like Friends is the kind of thing you guys all want to sidestep somehow, or to pretend like it doesn't exist or doesn't matter.

These people were almost all writing SHITTY COMEDY long before AD. What are you saying, then, that they all just weren't TRYING before? Or that they all suddenly became funny in their thirties? It doesn't make sense.

Brad Copeland wrote Wild Hogs LAST YEAR. And the critics all pissed on it. But his shit for AD? They DROOL over that. Why?

(see everything I've said so far)

A few writers for The Office:

Greg Daniels is a writer for Saturday Night Live.

Larry Wilmore was formerly a writer for The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, The PJ's, and In Living Color. All those shows focus mainly on black subject matter. The Office has what, one black person?

Lester Lewis wrote for Caroline in The City, a show which, if I remember correctly, differs very little from Friends.

Micheal Schur also wrote for Saturday Night Live.

Jennifer Ann Celotta wrote for Home Improvement and Malcolm in the Middle

Paul Lieberstein wrote for Carrisa Explains it All, a sitcom about a teenage girl. This was shown on Nickelodeon.

You're right, The Office writers definitely have better resumes than the writers for Arrested Development, but that isn't to say they haven't been involved in their fair share of horrible shows.

On a separate note, I do agree that the Office is a better show than AD. I do wish they would tone down Micheal a bit though, he's getting too dumb for the shows good.

Lester Lewis CO-WROTE one. Episode. And he was the sketchiest one on your little list. One episode, he co-wrote with the show creator. Utterly insignificant.

Jennifer Celotta, yeah that HI thing sounds suspect. Wait, "unknown episodes"? Hm...ok...whatever we'll give you that one. Malcolm in the Middle? One god damned episode.

Larry Wilmore, yeah. The Office has some of the most interesting, insightful and original race-based comedy scenes I've ever seen. Daryl's shit with Michael is SO on-point.

People writing for SNL is supposed to be what kind of argument now? You don't write an "episode" of SNL. You contribute material. These people were on the team because they're funny.

All those people you listed? NONE of them are the important writers, the cast members who write most of the material. Except for Toby. And I don't know why you said Paul Lieberstein wrote for Clarissa, because according to imdb, he uh...didn't.

**EDIT** - According to Wikipedia, however, he did! It was his first ever job as a writer, and he got it because he wrote a spec-script for The Simpsons. How representative is that supposed to be of the man or his work? Would the circumstances lead you to believe it was something he wanted to do?


There are big, BIG differences here. Some of the main people on AD were some of the main people on Friends, Golden Girls etc. Writing multiple episodes. The worst thing in the entire Office ROSTER is a single, tiny (somewhat dubious) "unknown episodes" of Home Improvement for Jennifer Celotta.

Those little glimmers of mediocrity are probably what account for the tiny chinks in the show's armor that manifested themselves in seasons 3 and 4. On the other hand, the MASSIVE, GLARING, OVERPOWERING mediocrity on the AD writing staff is what accounts for the same in that show.

WHY are we talking about The Office vs. Arrested Development? What does it have to do with anything.

JESUS CHRIST, you don't even believe in what you're trying to argue, and still you actually did RESEARCH because you were so excited about attempting to contradict something I'd said. Is that somehow not sad? Am I missing something?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BlackGravel,

I believe you are still missing my point. I will lay it out nice and easy for you. I was questioning the fact that you called AD the family version of friends. The reason you first gave me was that writers for AD formerly wrote for friends. I then said just because two different shows had different writers doesn't make them similar. You then told me to give examples. So I did with the Office. I was doing so because that is what you asked me.

Here we go. I told you that some of the main writers wrote for SNL. This is relevant because The Office is not at all similar to SNL. So, just because Office writers also wrote for SNL, doesn't make SNL similar to The Office.

I understand there are a few race based scenes throughout The Office, however, if I went and told you that the Office is the new Fresh Prince, only with white people and in an office, because the two shows have the same writers, you would call me crazy (I hope?).

My argument was extremely simple.

Also, yes I did look those things up, just as you did. I don't find that sad.

The SNL thing, as you already know, is completely irrelevant. It's a sketch comedy show.

Wilmore, also, wrote one episode.

I did the research I did because I'm somewhat invested in trying to spread around what I consider to be important truths. Some people are like that with horseshit like religion or politics, topics that NOBODY is really right about and that WASTE any and every second you spend thinking about them. I do it with music and movies. TV shows. CANDY. Things everyone can enjoy and understand, things that matter to real people, things interested in and acquainted with.

What you did is sad because you did it in order to contradict a person, not to argue any point that matters to you.

You are very oblivious to yourself, my friend. Do remember that I did the research on your request. Had I not done it, I would have been able to present to you nothing. I did so in order to keep a reasonable debate. I apologize if you think that was sad. You made a topic called You aren't going to like this one. You are just a tad delusional.

Also, once again, the fact that SNL is a sketch comedy show makes it entirely different from the Office. That was my point.

Wait. Wait. Wait. Are you pullin' some kinda double standard? It's okay for 'The Office' writers to have written crappy shows because they're talented enough to make this one completely different, but NOT 'Arrested Development? Whatever. I know you thought this thread was gonna be edgy and offensive for fans of the show (I'm guessing that's what you're trying to do by making the title "You aren't going to like this one."), but it isn't... because you don't have any real points. Only problems that YOU see. Your points mean NOTHING to folks that enjoy the show. You're wasting your time with this thread, (but then again, so am I in trying to type some friggin' sense into you). What's your point? That you're smart enough to notice these GLARING FLAWS and nobody else is? Whatever.

I can tell you this much, I've watched both versions of 'The Office' and changed the channel within 10 minutes (and I LOVE Steve Carell). I could go into WHY I couldn't stand either show, but I don't need to. It wasn't my kinda comedy, but apparently it's sumpthin' alotta other folks enjoy. So who am I to talk smack on it? (However, I'm sure I've now opened myself to mudslinging! ) Who are you to feel you can be the biggest jerk to a group of people who's only crime is enjoying a television show? There are ALWAYS going to be shows that some love and others hate. Get over it. It's why we have MORE THAN ONE CHANNEL to choose from!

quote:

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
Wait. Wait. Wait. Are you pullin' some kinda double standard?

He most certainly is, I'm of the opinion that Blackgravel may have a shorter attention span than even me.

quote:

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
Whatever. I know you thought this thread was gonna be edgy and offensive for fans of the show (I'm guessing that's what you're trying to do by making the title "You aren't going to like this one."), but it isn't... because you don't have any real points.

QFT

quote:

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
I can tell you this much, I've watched both versions of 'The Office' and changed the channel within 10 minutes (and I LOVE Steve Carell). I could go into WHY I couldn't stand either show, but I don't need to. It wasn't my kinda comedy, but apparently it's sumpthin' alotta other folks enjoy. So who am I to talk smack on it? (However, I'm sure I've now opened myself to mudslinging! )

quote:

Originally not posted by BlackGravel:
WHAT! The Office is the greatest show ever on any television anywhere. Unfortunately for someone such as yourself, Ape_Man, you're far too obtuse and hebetudinous to get any of the humor.

quote:

Originally posted by grabblegarrr:
Larry Wilmore was formerly a writer for The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, The PJ's, and In Living Color. All those shows focus mainly on black subject matter. The Office has what, one black person?

...

You're right, The Office writers definitely have better resumes than the writers for Arrested Development, but that isn't to say they haven't been involved in their fair share of horrible shows.

The Fresh Prince ruled. I will not accept any criticism of it.

You're a doodyhead who probably likes that show with Jim Belushi.


(Just to be safe: )

The point that because similar writers are employed by two different shows makes the shows the same is by far BlackGravel's worst argument.

Lawrence Kasden wrote the screenplays for both The Big Chill and The Empire Strikes Back, yet I can hardly think of two more dissimilar films.

I've seen enough episodes of AD and Friends to be able to say with confidence that the tone and humor are very different. Also, I don't entirely hate Friends. It went on way too long, but some of the earlier seasons contained some pretty funny moments.

I'm also a huge fan of The Office, but comparing it to AD is apples and oranges. AD is straight-up absurdity and The Office employs a lot of deliberately serious, dramatic moments. In a lot of ways, The Office is actually more similar to Friends than AD.

We're talking television comedy series, not one MOVIE against another, and I'm sure you could find similar dialogue, similar characterizations, plenty similar in those two movies (I haven't seen The Big Chill)



It's not even CLOSE to a double-standard. You people aren't even reading anything I say. There was like ONE writer, who was not an important writer/member of the cast, who is alleged to have written for Home Improvement (though imdb just says "unknown episodes."

Arrested Development's CREATOR Mitchell Hurwitz (Golden Girls, Ellen etc.), and MAIN CONTRIBUTORS like Brad Copeland (Wild Hogs, etc.) Richard Day (Ladies Man, The golden Girls,) Jim Vallely (My Wife and Kids, THE GOLDEN GIRLS) are all up to their ears in bullshit.

You didn't even read my first post. I talked about the resumes of all the main writers on both shows, and how RADICALLY, OBVIOUSLY better they are for writers on The Office. And you know what else you notice? Between them, the most prevalent writers on AD wrote like two thousand episodes of the Golden Girls. That's what you're getting on AD. Golden Girls Humor.


And that leads to the other thing people decided to side-step. Are all these guys who wrote all this terrible stuff (most notably Wild Hogs (movie), Golden Girls, Friends, My Wife and Kids, Roseanne, Ladies Man, BOY MEETS WORLD, Will & Grace, (it goes on and on)) supposed to have suddenly become funny when they wrote for Arrested Development? How do you explain that? I left off even MORE terrible shows because, in keeping with what I've said before, having written one episode of something is pretty much insignificant. This isn't one episode, AGAIN, these guys pretty much wrote ALL of The Golden Girls.

Obviously one person isn't going to convince sixty people who are all in love with this fake, fake, fake, fake show. I additionally love how the actors and writers talk about how the show was taken off because of its "left-of-center" politics, or basically implying that it went over people's heads (implied by Jason Bateman and David Cross). That shit genuinely makes me sick to my stomach.

I don't have the energy to keep this up. Enjoy your bright orange dvds. It's absolutely not true that I couldn't care less; I wish I could convince people to watch FUNNY things like Home Movies and Dr. Katz instead, and to buy those dvds (these were also canceled). Then maybe there would be a movie follow-up for one of those VASTLY superior shows. Maybe Dr. Katz wouldn't have taken EIGHT YEARS to even come out on dvd. That all would pretty much be awesome. However, it's of course a losing battle.

But also - keep that make-believe bullshit about how I had "no points" or "nothing to say after all lol" to yourself. You had all decided not to be convinced when you came in, don't try to pretend I had no ammunition because you did the equivalent of cover your ears and go "LA LA LA" when I put (the eight metric tons or so of it) forward.

It's incredibly dumb sitcom jokes with bright orange WE ARE SO SMART AND CLEVER packaging. That's what it is. The third season was a little different because they were falling all over themselves to avoid getting canceled. Most of the interesting stuff in that season, however, wasn't the jokes. It was stunts and cameos and whatever weird, shiny spectacle they could cram into the episodes to attempt to dazzle people into tuning in.

But I got off track there again. I don't want to talk about the third season, or any of this, anymore. I knew what would happen when I made the damn thread. This mostly just serves as a rhetorical workout (although that's not to say I don't believe 100% in what I've been saying).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BlackGravel,

Here's the thing, BG. I think everyone gets that you enjoy The Office more than AD, that's fine, whatever. I don't watch either, it is just television and I prefer to waste my time by less passive means. But what you do consistently in every thread you touch is nothing more than attention whoring. Grow up.

quote:

Originally posted by BlackGravel:
That's what you're getting on AD. Golden Girls Humor.

How can anyone take you seriously when you make statements like that?

quote:

I wish I could convince people to watch FUNNY things like Home Movies and Dr. Katz instead, and to buy those dvds (these were also canceled).

And where are your 1,000 word love-rants on those shows to make me want to give them a try?

If you feel strongly about something, you should let us know why, minus any condescending impulses you have. The idea is to make a case for it, ask for it to be given a chance or second-chance and hope that at least one person might change their tune.

I hate to criticize you, but your method ain't working. The only thing you do successfully is piss people off. Maybe you don't mean to, I can't say, but you should try to be a little more thoughtful if you ever want to have someone agree with you. Sadly, I don't think that's your goal.

Still, I have no idea what the creators' resumes have to do with the show's quality or authenticity. Who, besides you, really gives two shits about what the writers did before AD? If the show's creator also worked on Golden Girls, how exactly does that detract from the quality of AD? Is the theory that if you work one lame show you can never create anything decent? I had no idea of this connection before you told me, and I never would've watched AD and thought to myself, "Hmm, didn't they use a similar joke in that one episode of Golden Girls?" It's ridiculous.

And what the hell does DVD packaging have to do with anything? You're seriously bringing up DVD packaging as a sign the show sucks?

quote:

How can anyone take you seriously when you make statements like that?

God damn you people. IT'S ALL THE SAME WRITERS. It's not a few of the same writers, the three MOST PREVALENT WRITERS on AD wrote like SIXTY EPISODES OF THE GOLDEN GIRLS. That. Is why. It's Golden. Girls. Humor. I know you're following me. It's not a Golden Girls plot, or setting, or approach (switch to single camera, erase laugh track), because they wanted to get the KIDS watching. But it's the same caliber writing (BECAUSE IT'S THE SAME PEOPLE. SAME PEOPLE. SAME. PEOPLE.)

I can't believe I came back to this, it's obviously pointless, no one's even reading any of my posts.

Mentioning the color of the dvds is not insulting it, for christ's sake. No one cares about any actual points or anything else. You all like the show so you attack, without any information or contradictory evidence. That's how most people operate, I suppose. It doesn't matter.

I don't own a television Michael. Any of the shows I'm mentioning are on dvd. On my computer.

quote:

Originally posted by BlackGravel:
God damn you people. IT'S ALL THE SAME WRITERS. It's not a few of the same writers, the three MOST PREVALENT WRITERS on AD wrote like SIXTY EPISODES OF THE GOLDEN GIRLS. That. Is why. It's Golden. Girls. Humor. I know you're following me. It's not a Golden Girls plot, or setting, or approach (switch to single camera, erase laugh track), because they wanted to get the KIDS watching. But it's the same caliber writing (BECAUSE IT'S THE SAME PEOPLE. SAME PEOPLE. SAME. PEOPLE.)

I still don't see what that has to do with anything. I can think of countless examples (in television, film, music, art, whatever) where someone has created something I loathed, and went on to create something else I loved. Or vice versa.

Your argument is essentially that Arrested Development is a corny show because Golden Girls is a corny show and they were created by the same people. It's terrible logic. If you're gonna hate on the show because it's not your brand of humor of whatever, I'm fine with that, but at least judge it on it's own merits, not on the merits of another show that was aimed an an entirely different audience that was on the air twenty years ago. That's just plain silly.

That's not my argument AT ALL. I hated the show and thought it was awful long before I knew anything about its pedigree. I only did research on that because:

1. I could tell based on the writing that the writers would have awful track records (and they did)

2. It's the only real aspect you can quantify in order to make an argument, and everyone's constant declarations about the show's greatness were driving me insane.

It's not bad because of the writers' pasts, it's bad because it's bad , and the writers' pasts help to make the fact of its badness more real. How many people do you think would be up in arms if I made a thread talking about how the Golden Girls is trash? None, of course. Why? Because the Golden Girls isn't current and colorful and sunshiney and hip and never made this many young kids feel hip and (falsely) intelligent.

But people don't want to HEAR arguments about something they like. They like it; that's enough. So I'm done with it. People will like shitty things until the end of the world, and awesome shows like Lucy, the Daughter of the Devil will go off the air after a single season. That's the world/life.

quote:

Originally posted by BlackGravel:
But people don't want to HEAR arguments about something they like. They like it; that's enough.

I learned this a long time ago. People like what they like. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Your essays on why people should consider the Wrens the greatest living band or why people should hate the Arctic Monkeys or Arrested Development are all fine and dandy, but if you think you're actually going to sway anyone's opinion of what they've already decided they like or dislike, think again. You're trying to present facts to argue an opinion, but in the end, you're still offering an opinion, which isn't any more correct than anyone elses.