I dont mean just in movies either. It seems like all sci-fi nowdays is just violence. I remember the genre used to be about presenting a hypothetical future thats used to examine issues in modern life. For example, "Brave New World" and "Bladerunner" taught us about the dangers of science and how it cant be allowed to go unrestrained. It seems like we just dont get real messages in sci-fi movies or books anymore. For me, the genre has basically died.

Now, I will agree that things have seemed to gone to pot, but that's the bane of a self-aware, older person. It just seems that things aren't as good as they used to be, and if you think that means I'm an old fart, just wait a few years and see what you think.

Now as far as this particular thread goes, I guess that I could agree that even Spielberg seems to be losing it, but his last two sci-fi films at least seem to be about things that you're concerned about, as opposed to every other writer/director of today's sci-fi.

Both "A.I. Artificial Intelligence" and "Minority Report" are about potential challenges to humanity and their responsibilities to those challenges. I'm not going to go into the flaws and successes of those films, and although both contain "violence", it's not really any stronger than, say, "Blade Runner."

I agree that we need more thought, but I , at least, thought that Spielberg was serious about making some important statements masked in "entertainment."

The examples you cite are interesting, Member 27. Brave New World is a wonderful, important novel, but has been made into several terrible films. Blade Runner is a stylish, noir classic, but pales in comparison to Dick's Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep.

Mark cites a couple of recent films that drew well from terrific material. I think A.I. brought a lot to Aldiss' "Supertoys Last All Summer Long" and wonder just what the final cut would have looked like had Kubrick completed it. He certainly did a fine job adapting A Clockwork Orange and making a lot of what was really more a premise than a screenplay in 2001. I've had problems with Spielberg's direction more often than not in the 80s and 90s, but thought he did a better adaptation of Philip K. Dick than we have seen to date with Minority Report.

Those excellent examples aside, though, science fiction has rarely fared well on the screen. The top grossing science fiction films are largely big budget remakes of 30s serials and 50s monster movies. Don't get me wrong, I love the gothic horror of Alien, the action adventure of Aliens, and think Terminator 2: Judgement Day was a much smarter movie than is generally acknowledged. But, a really interesting science fiction film like the adaptation of Harlan Ellison's A Boy and His Dog is my idea of what the genre should aspire to. Samuel Delany's short story "Time Considered As A Helix of Semi Precious Stones" and Kornbluth and Pohls' The Space Merchants deserve at least as good a treatment.

I diagree, though, that the literature is suffering. Sure, a walk through the bookstore is a grim experience. Franchise novels seem to have shoved most of the quality books off the shelves, but there is still a lot of great fiction flying under the radar and in the pulps. Robert Reed in particular is my favorite author working in the genre today. He has dealt with themes of the nature of human and artificial intelligence and consciousness in way that are so startlingly fresh and creative, that I will go to near ridiculous lengths to track down his work.

Under Gardner Dozois, Asimov's continues to offer some of the best the genre has to offer. Ellen Datlow, maybe one of the most significant and savvy editors since Damon Knight, helms Sci Fiction at scifi.com, which not only features some of the best authors the genre has to offer (including the aforementioned Mr. Reed), but is absolutely free.

What will it take to get such good work off the page and onto the screen. Dunno. I honestly dunno.

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I think studio execs and producers have decided that sci-fi films need to be big budget special effects extravaganzas. It doesn't need to be that way. Philip K Dick's books rarely if ever had intense chase scenes or major violence, they were stories about ordinary people with major flaws and problems, but studios want to put his stories in the hands of hacks like John Woo so they can add motorcycle chase scenes and doves and guns. A chase scene in a Dick novel would be more like the O.J. chase, surreal and excruciating. Science Fiction does not have to be all action, space explosions and lasers. They need to start making psychological sci-fi movies. The genre usually has so much to say about the human condition that it is a shame to waste them on big budget's attached to nervous studio execs who need to make sure that 12yr olds will spend their money on it. Let's get some harder movies, with an edge, like A Scanner Darkly could be, or Spider Robinson's Mindkiller. Science fiction should take us to bizarre places in the human psyche, and leave us messed up afterwards and full of questions. Many of my favorite sci fi films were done on small budgets, and unfortunately that breed of director doesn't seem to be out there right now. I think another generation will come around and push the establishment again, but right now they are missing. I grew up loving what guys like John Carpenter,Sam Raimi and Peter Jackson were doing on shoestring budgets, and I would rather watch those old, cheap films than some crap like The Core or Armageddon or the Chronicles of Riddick for that matter. So, I won't lose hope for the genre, as long as people like us are talking about it, it will eventually improve.

What has happened to SF as a genre is success, and market forces, both in print and films. After "Star Wars" and the generation of the 60's reached their earning potentials, SF became mainstream and fragmented into rather discrete constituencies. The proof is plain to see in any B&N or Boarders, the relative shelf spaces allocated for fantasy, sf, horror, Star Trek/Wars, graphic novels, etc.

Hollywood simply greenlights whatever it thinks will generate the biggest box office. How many Stars Wars/Treks? Aliens/Terminators/Matrix, what have you... And on cable how many hours of Dune, and Taken, even Farmer's Riverworld, not to mention Lexx, Farscape, and yeah, re-runs of how many seasons of X-File, Babylon-5 cable movies, etc.

Of course the character and makeup of SF has changed over time since the prehistory of the Golden Age, when the field was essentially a ghetto, with Asimov, Bester, Clarke, Heinlein, Sturgeon, just to name the big ones from the 50's, Pohl, Budrys, Kornbluth, Herbert, Ellison, LeGuin, Silverberg, Disch, Delany, Zelezny, Dick, Cordwainer Smith in the 60's when Sf moved beyond space opera. The British New Wave gave us Aldiss, Moorcock, Keith Roberts. The Cyberpunk era had Gibson, Sterling, Bear, McAuley, Ian Banks, at least two Aussies, Greg Egan and Ken Macleod.

Unfortunately, this arc of "straight" SF became by the 90's a relatively small proportion of the science fiction/fantasy marketplace, the majority being the fantasy and science fantasy of dragons and spells, the Terry Brooks, the JRR Tolkiens, whatnot...

Robert Silverberg complains that his stuff is not in print, and it is true. The shelf life of even excellent titles by good SF writer is short. But you can fine practically all of Dick's titles in reprint trade editions. You can find Disch's 334 and Camp Concentration. Ward Moore's Bring the Jubilee is available. There is Amazon and eBay. SF is no longer the faith of our fathers, but you can find it if you try.

On the bright side, consider this: when we were kids we had The Day the Earth Stood Still, Invasion of the Body Snatcher, and for scheer poetry, Matheson's The Incredible Shrinking Man.
(not to forget Forbidden Planet or The Fly!)

Today to that list we can add in no particular order: Bladerunner, Brazil, Solaris (not the remake), The Sacrifice, 12 Monkeys, The Adventures of Baron Munchausen, Alien, Aliens, Beetlejuice, Crash, eXistenZ, Dark City, Dune (long version), Jacob’s Ladder, Men In Black, Near Dark, Road Warrior, The Voyage Home, 2001: A Space Odyssey, They Live, Prince of Darkness, Exorcist II: The Heretic, Alphaville, City of Lost Children, Dawn of the Dead, Ghost in the Shell, The Hidden, The Terminator, Spirited Away, La Jetée, The Lathe of Heaven (not the awful remake), Naked Lunch, Orlando, Fifth Element, Total Recall, Robocop, and The Matrix.

(Admittedly my net is broad, and I've taken the liberty to omit all the Star Trek movies 'cept one, all Steven Spielbergs, all Tremors, the un-necessary Matrixes, Robocops, Terminators and a few other including Kevin Kostner's 2 post- apocralytic epics and movies of DC and Marvel comics...)

Otherwise, I don't think the sky is falling. I, Robot opens next week and it doesn't seemed to bear any relationship to any Asimov or the Ellison screenplay.

As for Time Considered as a Helix of Semi Precious Stones, one day we will all be in paradise...but I can imagine Ralph Fiennes in A Rose for Ecclesiastes!

We're in agreement pretty much across the board, wong828. My only comment is as regards your list of contemporary and relative contemporary films. You do cast a broad net, including a number of what would be considered horror films, but I personally think that's smart. I think the genre is at its best dealing with the possible than the likely.

I don't know what to make of I, Robot. If memory serves, the film is based more on the Elijah Bailey/R. Daneel Olivaw stories, but the producers felt I, Robot was a more familiar and marketable title.

Ralph Fiennes would be a great piece of casting for "A Rose for Ecclesiastes," but that would be a bear of a screenplay to pull off.

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You mean Time Considered as a Helix of Semi Precious Stones isn't?

Think English Patient and Ghost of Mars. Wouldn't that be a hoot.

The 2 Elijah Bailey/R. Daneel Olivaw stories I know are the novels Cave of Steel and Naked Sun. Are there others?

Actually, TCAAHOSPS (can't resist excessively long acronyms) would be as big a bear if not bigger. I was just hoping you would conveniently overlook the obvious falacy of my comment regarding ARFE in light of having suggested Delany on the screen in the first place.

It does bring up an excellent point, though. When the subject of, "Where the hell are all of the movie adaptations of the best the genre has to offer" comes up, I feel like people ignore the fact that some of the best the genre has to offer would make a poor jump to the screen. Kornbluth and Pohl's The Space Merchants should be a natural given the current state of our consumer culture, but literary satire doesn't have the best history in film. Gulliver's Travels, anyone?

In addition to The Caves of Steel and The Naked Sun, Asimov returned to Elijah Bailey and R. Daneell Olivaw in 1983 with The Robots of Dawn. Asimov also continues R. Daneel Olivaw's story without Elijah Bailey [SPOILER] as a central character in his late 80s and 90s novels that attempted with (varying degress of success) to reconcile his "robot" series and his "empire" series.

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If we go that far back, why not Pohl and Kornbluth's Gladiator at Law, or Kornbluth's The Syndic?

As for improbable film options, besides Time Considered as a Helix of Semi Precious Stones and A Rose for Ecclesiastes, why not Cordwainer Smith's Drunkboat (after Rimbaud with a really short title)?

A screen treatment for Dalgren would be easy...

But in the You Can't Always Get What You Want, But You Can Get What You Need Department: HBO's Carnavale last season, and presumedly this, is the closest thing I've seen to if Theodore Sturgeon had written Ray Bradbury's Something Wicked This Way Come. Especially the 1st half dozen episodes; it's a pity it isn't a limited series with closure. Dust bowl America, religious fundamentalism of a fire and brinstone aspect, a young man gifted/curesd with extraordinary power joins the circus. The period look and the music alone are fabulous. Like I said, too bad it didn't ended.

Which brings to mind the question, How hard can it be to do Sturgeon's More Than Human? Or simply Baby Is Three?

(It is worth noting that the Elijah Bailey and R. Daneell Olivaw novels were Asimov's most explicit attempt to bring together the universe of his 3 Laws of Robotics and the Foundation. Unfortunately, I gave up on Asimov after The Gods Themselve, when he became afflicted with the same malady that got the later Heinlein and Varley, whole novels where people gabbed incessently to little point.)

It's good to meet a fellow Kornbluth fan.

Gladiator-at-Law would make a great concept, but I think the screenplay would have to be very different from the novel.

The Syndic is interesting in that I think it would actually work better than The Space Merchants given the movie-going public's love of films featuring organized crime. I spent years looking for a copy of the novel (I refused to use any online resources like ebay, where's the fun in that?). When I finally tracked it down, I was surprised to find it one of his weaker novels. Again, great concept, but the final product on the screen would have to be very different than the novel.

Sure. Dhalgren. Piece of cake. You get on that. While you're at it, I'll work on my screeplay for Ellison's "Adrift Just Off the Islets of Langerhans: Latitude 38° 54' N, Longitude 77° 00' 13" W."

I'm sorry to have missed Carnavale (I haven't sprung for HBO). Your description of SWTWC as written by Sturgeon leaves me with the hope that it will find its way to video sooner rather than later. Strangely enough, I found myself thinking of the 1983 film version of SWTWC just last night, before I read your post. I liked that film. I liked that film a lot.

Your question is dead on, though. Where's More Than Human? Heinlein's Stranger In A Strange Land often comes up in discussions as a film option, which I don't believe would work. Orson Scott Card is apparently back at work on bringing Ender's Game to the screen, which I cannot believe will work. But what about More Than Human? Of all of the novels that have to be considered canon in the genre, I think it has the best chance of success, yet I have never seen any indication that any studio is interested. Strange.

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Kornbluth fan? Odd to hear it put that way, LinnTate.

Beside his collaborations, you know of any other novels he wrote on his own besides The Syndic and Gunner Cade?

This is an important collection (as well as the multivolumes of the complete short fiction of Sturgeon, Cordwainer Smith and Dick).

His Share of Glory: The Complete Short Science Fiction of C.M. Kornbluth
edit. Timothy Szczesuil, New England Science Fiction Association

Since we're getting nostalgic, remember The Dreaming Jewel?

Gunner Cade was one of two collaborations with Judith Merril.

Aside from The Syndic, Kornbluth wrote Not This August, which is the first novel I read from him as well as Takeoff, which I have yet to track down.

The NESFA collection was a tough call for me. As I mentioned before, scouring used book stores for Kornbluth novels and collections featuring his short fiction used to be something of a hobby. When the opportunity to buy all of the short fiction in one fell swoop I was conflicted, but it proved irresistable.

Kornbluth is on my short list of favorite writers in the genre, but aside from my admiration for The Space Merchants, I do not like his novels nearly as well as his short fiction. "The Marching Morons" is the first Kornbluth I can recall reading when it was reprinted in Omni magazine in the late 70s or early 80s. I didn't seek anything out from him until I happened across Not This August years later. That novel reminds me structurally of his short story "Shark Ship" with the latter being the superior work. "The Altar At Midnight" is, I think, my favorite of his work.

I've not read "The Dreaming Jewel," but your mention of it and reference to the Cordwainer Smith reminds me that I need to set aside a bit of mad money to send along to the good folks at NESFA again. Thanks!

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: LinnTate,

Now I remember, under the joint pen name Cyril Judd. What's the other?

Oddly enuf, I read both Not This Auguest and Takeoff. And since I read 'em I suspect I still have 'em, both hardbacks. I think Syndic is a Bantam ppbk.

Ward Moore's Bring the Jubilee, Jack Vance's To Live Again and Poul Anderson's Brainwave were all Ballentine ppbk in the lower single digit and teens. Richard Power covers.

I'm looking at Pohl's introduction to His Share of Glory. Marschild is the other Cyril Judd novel, though I've seen it listed as Outpost Mars. I've not read it.

Pohl also mentions a half-dozen novel Kornbluth wrote on his own including three mainstream novels, Valerie, The Naked Storm, and Man of Cold Rages.

I seem to recall that one of his mainstream novels was about the media, but now I can find no mention of it anywhere.

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My God, LinnTate, you are a wonderment.

Marschild!

Where do you have the time to lavish on the uneducated masses?

All right, to test whether you're really an info-goddess or merely an Earth woman with too much time on your hand, what's this:

WIWTFRR

Hint: British, living, SF, short fiction.

..although given Indiana winters, what is there to do with one's free time.

quote:

---

Originally posted by wong828:
...whether you're really an info-goddess or merely an Earth woman with too much time on your hand...

---

Neither. I fear I come up a half-chromosome short to fit either bill.

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Damn that's funny! Someone needs to look back at older posts! Certainly sheds some insight into Wong828's intuitive powers! Unneccessary shots, I know! But gender confusion on the internet makes me laugh so much!

Smenkharon:

It happens more often than you can imagine. Or maybe not. The imagine part.

Are you familiar with the background to David Henry Hwang's M Butterfly?
As Jeremy Iron whould say, "You have no idea."

****************

LinnTate:

In that case, you can still be a wonderment.

But that’s about it.

It’s odd how gender and age specific some things are, and how subtle the reading of these factors can be.

Cultural too. In Chinese you can be a scholar. There would not be any awkwardness at all. In English, the gender specificality precludes an appropriate familial terminology from a peer. Acknowledgement is reduced to the tacit and relegated to the realm of affects. That makes this a macho culture: John Wayne can only say, “You’re good, real good.” Or to be even more familiar, “You’re some kind of work.” So the greatest encomium or acknowledgement Marlene Dietrich can use to describe Wells in Touch of Evil was, “He was some kind of man.” Still, it was offered from a subordinate and to a third party.

Since I write poetry, and choose to think of poetry as being artful and have a variety of voices, and to not create what I call issues of authenticity, some were authored, as you would say, a half-chromosome short. I took the tack as an expediency, rather than have to explain. Obviously it affects their reception, and for the most part, the issues I wanted to sidestep, including issues of authenticity, were sidestepped. On publication, presented as a group, the issue became different, the discourse can be shifted: It is simply a voice, in character, with it’s own consistency, logic and integrity. Also, it was one among many. Nevertheless, there was a preamble and I explained.

Some while after all this, I came across one of Michael Ondaatje’s book of poetry, and he too had written some poems from the vantage of one with a half-chromosome short. He didn’t explain (which is brave, from my perspective) and he didn’t group them (which I think is risky). And I think he was wrong not to.

Without the context of gender “explained” there were issues of authenticity. Except in very narrow contextual frames, poetry isn’t fiction. It is considered an authorial voice. The “I” is implied.

Arthur Golden’s Memoirs of a Geisha, in spite of it’s title, is considered fiction, although I understand it was based on a real individual. Again, fundamentally contextualized.

To be completely successful, you have to be willing to deceive, as with a pen name. I think once the issue is made salient, authenticity becomes an issue. Race is another one. Witness Styron’s Confessions of Nat Turner.


In any case, the tell should’ve been SF and jazz. (Is that sexist or what!)

Figure out what WIWTFRR yet? Or you wanna throw in the towel?