Now that Robert De Niro and Al Pacino are older and past their prime, who is going to replace them as Hollywoods leading, heavyweight, superstars? I can't see Cruise or Pitt ever having the 'gravitas' to replace them, either as actors or stars.
De Niro & Pacino both have/had superstar quality like back in the golden age of Hollywood. They even trumped the superstar status by being thoroughly modern actors.
Boy those two have/had CHARISMA. Unlike anyone else of their time.
So who is going to carry their crown now that they are fading away? Or are they simply irreplaceable?

I'm not sure I completely understand what you mean with the whole superstar thing, but I think there are definitely some actors who have the chops to get it done.

Russell Crowe - Even if he isn't as young as the following.
Leonardo DiCaprio
Matt Damon
Jamie Foxx
Joaquin Phoenix
Christian Bale
Keanu Reeves (just kidding)

I'll add to the list (of course) Denzel Washington and Paul Giamatti. There's a couple of fine actors.

Also, I'd replace Pacino with Jack Nicholson. I've never been a big fan of Pacino's but Jack will be the man until he dies and his personality is posthumously coded into a gorilla's body, the way nature intended.

Jack Nicholson is by far the best actor since Marlon Brando, there is no doubt about that. I really like Al Pacino and Robert De Niro as well, but for me, Nicholson is the best actor we have.

I will add that I think Leonardo DiCaprio is stellar as well, plus he continues to work with Martin Scorsese, that doesn't hurt. I think he is only getting better with each movie he does. I will also add and agree on (although some are old but not as old as Pacino or De Niro):

Paul Giamatti
Matt Damon
Clive Owen
Denzel Washington
Mark Wahlberg
Tom Hanks
Philip Seymour Hoffman
Russell Crowe

My favorite actors of the late 60s/early 70s, in order, are Nicholson, Hoffman, Pacino, Hackman, McQueen.

Did anybody mention Johnny Depp yet?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mark f,

Despite what people have said I don't think (and this is only my opinion) that any of the actors mentioned are in the same league as De Niro and Pacino. With the exception of Jack Nicholson, but he is getting old too.
De Niro and Pacino were exceptional IMPOV. The actors mentioned here are good but not exceptional.
Also they seem to lack the star charisma to become *great*.
However YMMV.

The new hollywood actresses on the other hand are very promising. Jennifer Connelly, Liv Tyler and Kiera Knightly all seem to have that extra something.

Maybe I think the Hollywood actors of today are too 'boyish' and not the real man type like Nicholson, Niro, and Pacino. Who knows?

quote:

Originally posted by Honza:
Despite what people have said I don't think (and this is only my opinion) that any of the actors mentioned are in the same league as De Niro and Pacino. With the exception of Jack Nicholson, but he is getting old too.
De Niro and Pacino were exceptional IMPOV. The actors mentioned here are good but not exceptional.
Also they seem to lack the star charisma to become *great*.
However YMMV.

The new hollywood actresses on the other hand are very promising. Jennifer Connelly, Liv Tyler and Kiera Knightly all seem to have that extra something.

Maybe I think the Hollywood actors of today are too 'boyish' and not the real man type like Nicholson, Niro, and Pacino. Who knows?

Besides the fact that I disagree with everything you just said, what's "IMPOV" and "YMMV"?

As far as Hoffman goes, he was in The Graduate, Midnight Cowboy, Little Big Man, Straw Dogs, Papillon, Lenny, All the President's Men and Marathon Man, all in 10 years. He's often considered better after those but I say rubbish.

Gene Hackman is a mind-blowing actor. He's often so good, you just don't even notice it. He was in The French Connection, The Conversation, Young Frankenstein, French Connection II (my all-time fave of his), Bite the Bullet, Mississippi Burning (a textbook in awesome acting), and Unforgiven.

McQueen is pretty much too iconic to discuss, but I'll mention The Magnificent Seven, The Great Escape, Soldier in the Rain, The Cincinnati Kid, The Sand Pebbles (one of the greatest-acted scenes of all-time is his last scene in this film), The Thomas Crown Affair, Bulitt, The Reivers, Papillon.

I'm just scratching the surface, and I will talk about Al and Bob because they're great, but that'll be next time.

quote:

Originally posted by FragileKidA:

quote:

Originally posted by Honza:
Despite what people have said I don't think (and this is only my opinion) that any of the actors mentioned are in the same league as De Niro and Pacino. With the exception of Jack Nicholson, but he is getting old too.
De Niro and Pacino were exceptional IMPOV. The actors mentioned here are good but not exceptional.
Also they seem to lack the star charisma to become *great*.
However YMMV.

The new hollywood actresses on the other hand are very promising. Jennifer Connelly, Liv Tyler and Kiera Knightly all seem to have that extra something.

Maybe I think the Hollywood actors of today are too 'boyish' and not the real man type like Nicholson, Niro, and Pacino. Who knows?

Besides the fact that I disagree with everything you just said, what's "IMPOV" and "YMMV"?

Ahh we disagree! Time for a good discussion. lol. IMPOV = In my point of view.
YMMV = Your milage may vary.
Sorry for using acronyms; I picked up the habit on another forum where people use them all the time (often leaving me scratching my head wondering what they mean!)

Thanks for the clarification.

I disagree with you on two of the actresses that you chose. I would argue that some of the actresses that are going to be truly great and are already starting to shine are Natalie Portman and Maggie Gyllenhaal. There are already a few actresses that are doing a great job like Jennifer Connelly and also Nicole Kidman, Renée Zellweger and Hilary Swank.

There always seems to be a slew of actors that are rising to the plate. So I also disagree with you when you say they are "boyish." Some of them have already made some spectacular movies where they acted brilliantly.

I was going to talk about De Niro and Pacino, but I am nowhere near as good as mark, so I will leave that to him.

Robert De Niro (born 1943). Al Pacino (born 1940). Jack Nicholson (born 1937).

I do believe that it’s important to understand and come to a closer agreement on what “Hollywood leading, heavyweight, superstars” means in order to actually have a meaningful discussion on this thread. Where do recognition by number of major awards won by an actor or nominated for, box office receipts of a movie, number of critically acclaimed movies that actor starred in, the asking price or salary that an actor commands per movie fit in this definition? How many awards, movies, over how long a period of time do they have to remain critically acclaimed or remain popular with the audiences and/or critics? Kevin Costner (1955 - ) rose to fame and had a great few years (1989-1991).

The standard while still unclear, the actual past standouts have been somewhat more consistently identified, a list such as the following would roughly portray the nature of the actors that “leading, heavweight, and superstar” might refer to:

Richard Attenborough (1923- ).
Dick Bogarde (1920 – 1999).
Humphrey Bogart (1899 – 1957).
Ernest Borgnine (1917 - ).
Marlon Brando (1924 – 2004).
Richard Burton (1925 – 1984).
Michael Caine (1933 - ).
Sean Connery (1930 - ).
Kirk Douglas (1916 - ).
Clint Eastwood (1930 - ).
Henry Fonda (1905 – 1982).
Glenn Ford (1916 - ).
Clark Gable (1901 – 1960).
James Garner (1928 - ).
Stewart Granger (1913 – 1993).
Cary Grant (1904 – 1986).
Alec Guinness (1914 – 2000).
Gene Hackman (1930 - ).
Charleston Heston (1924 - ).
Hal Holbrook (1925 - ).
William Holden (1918 – 1981).
Burt Lancaster (1913 – 1994).
Jack Lemmon (1925 – 2001).
Paul Newman (1925 - ).
Jack Nicholson (1937 - ).
Laurence Olivier (1907 – 1989).
Gregory Peck (1916 – 2003).
Sidney Poitier (1924 - ).
Anthony Quinn (1915 – 2001).
Cliff Robertson (1925 - ).
George C. Scott (1927 – 1999).
Frank Sinatra (1915 – 1998).
James Stewart (1908 – 1997).
Donald Sutherland (1934 - ).
Spencer Tracy (1900 – 1967).
Orson Welles (1915 – 1985).

One also has to take into account the major studio age where actors were under contract and today’s more diverse and competitive environment for actors and the expanding number of different genres and subgenres that exist as well as the introduction of cable and television event movies as well as the growth of the international market and audience whose appetites could very easily be different from ours (there’s Toshiro Mifune (1920 – 1997) who starred in some great Japanese movies that were only then copied into success stories by the American film industry with Rashomon (1951) and Seven Samurai (1954). If one were mention Frankie Avalon (1939 - ) to a number of girls who saw him sixties, he could have been very easily considered a leading, heavyweight, superstar to them. Or Cary Cooper (1901 – 1961) who was swamped by women during an earlier era and then Gene Autry (1907-1998) who was popular in the forties. Richard Boone (1916 – 1981) was a super Western star of the sixties and seventies. James Cagney (1899 – 1986) made in good in police thrillers. Errol Flynn (1909 – 1959) thrilled audiences with his swash buckling adventure movies as a superstar during the thirties and forties. There was Boris Karloff (1887 – 1969) of horror fame in the twenties and thirties and onto into the forties. Lon Chaney Jr. (1906 – 1973) was of course the monster man of the thirties and forties and fifties along with Peter Cushing (1913 –1994) who took over the monster mantel during the fifties, sixties, and seventies. Tony Curtis (1925 - ) was beloved and regarded as the comic’s comic during the fifties and sixties. Yul Brynner (1915 – 1985) is probably one of the most mysterious actors for this thread in that he was trapped the system into roles that likely thwarted his potential to reach superstar status. There’s Fred Astaire (1899-1987) whose ability to dance on the screen was unsurpassed and starred in many an entertaining movie with some of the greatest screen legends. Even Arnold Schwarzenegger (1947 - ) could be considered a bigger, well-known actor than De Niro and Pacino in terms of box office receipts, popularity with big movies, whose movies are so well known, I need not even refer to them here. Antonio Banderas (1960 - ) has likely made a name for himself in the Latino market for example. I would imagine that Jackie Chan (1954 - ) has little problem being considered a heavy weight superstar in any Asian country one would like to name, home to more than a third of the world’s population. If children were to rate De Niro and Pacino and Don Knotts (1924 - ), it’s likely that De Niro and Pacino would lose. Even Christopher Lee (1922 - ) as well as the much esteemed Peter O’Toole (1932 - ) seem to be keeping up with De Niro and Pacino in terms of acting gigs and fame even now. Elvis Presley anyone? Finally how does one even try to place Bob Hope (1903 – 2003) or Jerry Lewis (1926 - ) Dean Martin (1917 – 1995), Peter Sellers (1925 – 1980) in terms of movies and De Niro and Pacino? I don’t think I’m even going to go there.

One could compare Robert De Niro and Al Pacino to Kenneth Branagh (1960 - ) in status if one wanted to focus on the nature of the movies where Mr. Branagh has been noted for his more Shakespearean roles. Michael Douglas (1944 - ) is another interesting comparison with Robert De Niro and Al Pacino that deserves some attention. Mr. Douglas having anchored some notable movies that while not classic blockbuster continue to resonate in the annals of film history including Fatal Attraction (1987), War of the Roses (1989), Basic Instinct (1992), Disclosure (1994), and The Game (1997). Mr. Douglas has had clout and name recognition to go with his resume. Another contemporary is Richard Dreyfruss (1947 - ) who can be argued to have an equally impressive film accomplishment in some remarkable movies including Jaws (1975), The Goodbye Girl and Close Encounters of the Third Kind that came out the same year (1977), and Mr. Holland’s Opus (1995). Peter Fonda (1939 - ) is even more interesting in that his acting career appears to be currently accelerating with 3:10 to Yuma (2007) while De Niro’s is in descent. Harrison Ford (1942 - ) can easily be considered, in my mind, in the same league as De Niro and Pacino with the primary difference being Ford’s pervasive selection of more mainstream as well as profitable and popular movies, including Star Wars (1977), Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981), Blade Runner (1982), Working Girl (1988), and The Fugitive (1993). Even Morgan Freeman (1937 - ) could be considered in this category if one really considers his weighty credits, including Driving Miss Daisy (1989), Unforgiven (1992), The Shawshank Redemption (1994), Seven (1995), Amistad (1997), and Million Dollar Baby (2004). Richard Gere (1949 - ) also has had a credible film history even as recently as Chicago (2004) in a performance that even De Niro nor Pacino could have pulled off successfully. Dustin Hoffmann (1937 - ) also created some memorable film roles, has become a recognized name in the industry and in same ways is the most difficult to compare to De Niro and Pacino because of his unique screen presentation as can be seen in Tootsie (1982) and I Heart Huckabees (2004). Comparison with Kurt Russell (1951 - ) is also difficult, yet Mr. Russell has distinguished himself in a number of unique roles after beginning in the teenage comedies of the sixties and seventies, including Escape from New York (1981), the Thing (1982), Silkwood (1983), the most unusual, off the wall but enjoyable Big Trouble in Little China (1986) whose performance was subtle humorous in a he-man role that neither De Niro or Pacino I see being able to pull off, Backdraft (1991), Stargate (1994), Soldier (1998). John Hurt (1940 - ), a classical actor, in The Elephant Man (1980) 1984 (1984), Dogville (2003) and William Hurt (1950 - ) in Altered States (1980), Body Heat (1981), Big Chill (1983), Kiss of the Spider Woman (1985), Children of a Lesser God (1986), The Accidental Tourist (1988), The Doctor (1991), Tuck Everlasting (2002), and John Malkovich (1953 - ) as in Being John Malkovich (1999) and Ripley’s Game (2002) are also reputable actors and interestingly enough have made a mark for themselves not so much in trying to compete in the industry as selectively ending up in unique and different films that skew more independent and almost require a whole different standard for comparison. Ben Kingsley (1943 - ) with his famous role in Ghandi (1982) in same ways while not having the same popularity might be considered an even heavier, heavyweight actor – his relatively recent starring role in Sexy Beast (2000) is a powerful one that rivals anything that De Niro or Pacino has accomplished lately. Finally Anthony Hopkins (1937 - ), only three years older than Al Pacino and six years older than Robert De Niro, in my mind outclasses both of these actors in terms of reputation, leading man, and stardom. I feel I don’t even need to begin to defend this position at this points.

Even attempting to compare one’s favorite from one generation to another is fraught with difficulties as even generational tastes change. What was heavyweight and superstardom in one era isn’t necessarily recognized especially in trying to look forward into the future. There was Mickey Rooney (1920 - ) who became popular in the thirties and forties with National Velvet (1944) having also caught teen attention as Andy Hardy and interest in his movies continued on into the fifties. John Wayne (1907 – 1979) pretty much had the western all to himself during the some of the thirties (which he shared) and then the forties, including war movies, and then into the fifties and sixties, Steve McQueen (1930 – 1980) with his looks and daring young fresh rebellious movies became a big megastar of the fifties and sixties and might be the best example of generational comparison with De Niro and Pacino of the seventies and eighties. Whether not Steve McQueen from an overall film perspective is considered in the league of the earlier mentioned actors isn’t all that clear. Robert Mitchum (1917 – 1997) is also another actor who had a following in the forties and fifties for his western and crime movies that seems even more similar to De Niro and Pacino in character and stardom and yet his name is rarely compared to the greatest of actors. Even Burt Reynolds qualifies as a well-known, popular actor during the seventies and eighties that might rival the attention given De Niro and Pacino in their heyday.

In looking at Robert De Niro himself and his later accomplishments, his reign as leading man or heavyweight, stardom as has been implied has already ended as the actor has been playing against type in mostly comedies. Known for his roles in notable films beginning with Godfather Part II (1974) and Taxi Driver (1976), Raging Bull (1980), he has had a solid, if not a perfect run of good movies (The Adventures of Rocky & Bullwinkle (2000)). However, it could also be said that personally comedy is by far the more difficult film genre, and Mr. De Niro has not really demonstrated the comic talent as many actors who started in comedy have demonstrated.

In examining Al Pacino also of Godfather (1972) fame along with Serpico (1973) and Dog Day Afternoon (1975), Scarface (1983), with the exception Scent of a Woman (1992) he has mostly distinguished himself with hard boiled roles – a strong man. Whether or not Al Pacino could be considered a diverse actor is debatable. Yet he seems to retain his stamina to continue in strong movies. Yet when it comes to memorable movies, contemporary, next generation movies, there are plenty of actors who have accomplished as much and been recognized as well and made as much or more money for their roles in profitable movies.

Another contemporary actor with De Niro and Pacino that would definitive argue is in the same league and remains a heavyweight contender today is Robert Redford (1937 - ) becoming known not with a bang but with a tender romance in Barefoot in the Park (1967), then more dashing in action but still not criminally intense in Downhill Racer (1969) and then the classic as much as any movie Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (1969), the Candidate (1972), The Sting (1973), The Three Days of Condor (1975), All the President’s Men (1976), The Electric Horseman (1979), Brubaker (1980), The Natural (1984), The Horse Whisperer (1997). In fact, personally, I would have Robert Redford as my favorite for this generation in question along with Jack Nicholson. Mr. Redford should he decide still has enough clout to continue in star in several more future great movies.

The only distinction that I can observe in reviewing film actors of the past 100 years is that there appears a demarcation between those actors who have carried a movie and those who appear to have had a lengthy film history and have obtained name recognition but remain character actors or supporting actors, important nonetheless they are. Thus one essential and necessary requirement appears to be that any such actor nominated in this thread must have been able to star or carry a movie into critical acclaim or box office success or some such and can be credited for such.

It’s even possible that the very notion of a leading, heavy, superstar has become outmoded, outdated in terms of what the public is now interested in and the critics are looking for. Like Sir Isaac Newton and Ben Franklin, the days of super people doing amazing things in many disciplines may be over. Interestingly some good actors are expanding their own areas of interest into producing, writing, and directing and even outside the film industry field narrowing the field of available, potential leading candidates.

Nevertheless in taking a stab at possible candidate for future “Hollywood leading, heavyweight, superstar” status, such actors might include:

Gabriel Byrne (1950 - ).
Nicholas Cage (1964 - ).
Jim Carrey (1962 - ).
George Clooney (1961 - ).
Russell Crowe (1964 - ).
Tom Cruise (1962 - ).
John Cusack (1966 - ).
Matt Damon (1970 - ).
Johnny Depp (1963 - ).
Leonardo DiCarpio (1974 - ).
Robert Downey Jr. (1965 - ).
Ralph Fiennes (1962 - ).
Colin Firth (1961 - ).
Brendan Fraser (1968 - ).
Mel Gibson (1956 - ).
Tom Hanks (1956 - ).
Ed Harris (1949 - ).
Bill Murray (1950 - ).
Brad Pitt (1963 - ).
Keanu Reeves (1964 - ).
Wil Smith (1968 - ).
Kevin Spacey (1959 - ).
James Spader (1961 - ).
John Travolta (1954 - ).
Denzel Washington (1954 - ).
Robin Williams (1952 - ).
Bruce Willis (1955 - ).

Please tell me you cut and pasted that.

quote:

Originally posted by PRG:
Please tell me you cut and pasted that.

Yes it was quite a post! Enlightening too.
I guess I should have stated that I find De Niro and Pacino exceptional, and then asked does anyone else. And THEN asked who is going to replace them.
I realise not everyone has the same view of those two's position in modern cinema as I do (and why should they?)

quote:

Honza
Participant
Posted 10 September 2007 03:31 PM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by PRG:
Please tell me you cut and pasted that.


Yes it was quite a post! Enlightening too.
I guess I should have stated that I find De Niro and Pacino exceptional, and then asked does anyone else. And THEN asked who is going to replace them.
I realise not everyone has the same view of those two's position in modern cinema as I do (and why should they?)

I would like to thank Honza for posting the original question in the first place. The post I previously created was cut from a Microsoft Word document that I worked on, but only just in case some strange occurrence happened like attempting to post now and it failed and lost everything. The post was, however, created in one sitting working constantly straight through and took me about two hours, consulting primarily VideoHound's Golden Movie Retreiver (2006) meaning that some of the people mentioned may actually have died. It's out of date already. However, I want say that I enjoyed the inspiration from your initial inquiry. It was fun.

Only Glenn Ford has died, last year, but that gives me another chance to push the original 3:10 To Yuma. Ford played the Crowe character, 50 years ago.

I find it interesting you included Hal Holbrook in that first list of "leading, heavyweight, and superstar." While I would consider him a heavyweight, at least with most of his work the last 20 years, I'm not sure he has really fit that mold.

quote:

PRG
Jedi
Posted 11 September 2007 12:42 PM Hide Post
I find it interesting you included Hal Holbrook in that first list of "leading, heavyweight, and superstar." While I would consider him a heavyweight, at least with most of his work the last 20 years, I'm not sure he has really fit that mold.

I got carried away during my two hour non-stop flight through all the actors and actresses of the past 100 years. Having met Mr. Holbrook in person, staying behind at the theater when he came to Utah several years ago, I guess I was just awed-strucked. But in looking over this film history, I can understand your comment and I really can't say anything to disagree with it.

quote:

Originally posted by tabuno:
I got carried away during my two hour non-stop flight through all the actors and actresses of the past 100 years. Having met Mr. Holbrook in person, staying behind at the theater when he came to Utah several years ago, I guess I was just awed-strucked. But in looking over this film history, I can understand your comment and I really can't say anything to disagree with it.

I've also seen him in some theater productions and he's sublime. There's also nary a voiceover artist better than he.

I must admit I've never even heard of Hal Holbrook! Sorry.
Has he been in any well known films that I could equate him with?

Hal Holbrook is primarily known for his live, one-man show as Mark Twain, the well-known writer of rather cynical and wise-cracking, rebellous Americana of the early 20th Century. When I re-reviewed Mr. Holbrooks movies he had been in, I have to admit there isn't many roles that really stand out, especially films in which he had a major role. The one that I can definitely say is a minor but mysterious role is as Deepthroat in All the President's Men (1976). He also had roles in:

WALL STREET (1987)
FLETCH LIVES (1989)
THE FIRM (1993)
THE MAJESTIC (2001)

Mr. Holbrook's career has tended more towards television than movies having won a number of Emmy Awards. If you've never seen Mr. Holbrook as Mark Twain, I would recommend seeing him on DVD at least once in your life.