quote:

Originally posted by hudson:

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Originally posted by golden flea:
and then hired bob rock as producer, which certainly didn't help its comparison to gold.

No true Metallica fan recognizes any of their work post-black album.

Make that post-MoP.

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Originally posted by ezkcdude:

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Originally posted by hudson:

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Originally posted by golden flea:
and then hired bob rock as producer, which certainly didn't help its comparison to gold.

No true Metallica fan recognizes any of their work post-black album.

Make that post-MoP.

Come now, true Metallica fans have been calling them sellouts for all albums after Kill 'Em All.

quote:

Originally posted by ezkcdude:

quote:

Originally posted by hudson:

quote:

Originally posted by golden flea:
and then hired bob rock as producer, which certainly didn't help its comparison to gold.

No true Metallica fan recognizes any of their work post-black album.

Make that post-MoP.

Naw, the black album is all good by me.

quote:

Originally posted by MajorNougat:


Come now, true Metallica fans have been calling them sellouts for all albums after Kill 'Em All.

Out damn spot, out! You got me on that one.

Here's the official ratings:

The Beatles PWNS Metallica pwns Megadeth.

Regarding Metallica, the Black album was the beginning of the end for the guys, so I honestly can't listen to without contempt. Some of the tracks are decent, but it's a complete shift in focus that, ultimately, caused what they are making now.

So says the leprechaun

I'm curious how many of you guys actually own Megadeth's first four albums. Metallica made some great albums early on, chief among them Master of Puppets. But Megadeth had more speed, more attitude, superior riffs, and more varied and interesting subject-matter and lyrics.

On Killing is my Business... Megadeth took what Kill 'em All did and ratcheted up the speed, attitude, and aggression. Not to mention the songs were just flat-out better. "But Briznow, Kill 'em All came out first and set the standard." Sure, it came out first, but guess who wrote half the songs? Dave Mustaine. "But Briznow, they kicked Dave Mustaine out of Metallica." You bet they did. Because he was a drunk asshole, not because he didn't write kick-ass music. That's why Dave Mustaine has writing credit on Metallica's first three albums.

But you know what? To hell with these bands' first albums. Let's get down to the nitty-gritty: Master of Puppets and Ride the Lightning versus Peace Sells and Rust in Peace. All great albums, to be sure. But Megadeth's seminal works lay Metallica's to waste. Metallica's best are measured in bad-ass riffs per minute. Megadeth's are so creative and varied they're measured in bas-ass riffs per second squared. I mean, for Christ's sake, other than "Dawn Patrol," every song on Rust in Peace is as good or better than anything Metallica ever did.

Both bands are great, but as a metal fan and guitarist for most of my life, there is really no comparison for me. I could ramble on about this forever, so if anyone wants to take me to task and demand a more specific explanation about anything Megadeth/Metallica, don't hesitate to ask.

Briznow, good post. Believe me, I give total props to Megadeth. Mustaine is insane on the guitar. But Metallica, in my mind, just wrote more powerful songs. Their songs were sprawling, guitar soaked, emotionally charged masterpieces.

Not to mention, Metallica originated the sound that Mustaine borrowed for his own band.

I agree with you, in part, hudson. Metallica did write more epic songs (which is what I assume you mean by "powerful"). I disagree on the point that Metallica originated the sound, though. I believe that Mustaine was as integral a part of crafting that sound as Hetfield or Burton, probably more so. He just doesn't get the credit because he was booted from Metallica before Kill 'em All was released. I think a lot of Mustaine's motivation throughout his career was "Hey, I originated that sound, I wrote a lot of those songs, but James gets all the credit."

quote:

Originally posted by Briznow:
I agree with you, in part, hudson. Metallica did write more epic songs (which is what I assume you mean by "powerful"). I disagree on the point that Metallica originated the sound, though. I believe that Mustaine was as integral a part of crafting that sound as Hetfield or Burton, probably more so. He just doesn't get the credit because he was booted from Metallica before Kill 'em All was released. I think a lot of Mustaine's motivation throughout his career was "Hey, I originated that sound, I wrote a lot of those songs, but James gets all the credit."

Agreed. But we're comparing the 2 bands, not Mustaine vs. whoever. And Metallica was clearly ahead of the game before Megadeth.

quote:

Originally posted by Briznow:
I'm curious how many of you guys actually own Megadeth's first four albums. Metallica made some great albums early on, chief among them Master of Puppets. But Megadeth had more speed, more attitude, superior riffs, and more varied and interesting subject-matter and lyrics.

On Killing is my Business... Megadeth took what Kill 'em All did and ratcheted up the speed, attitude, and aggression. Not to mention the songs were just flat-out better. "But Briznow, Kill 'em All came out first and set the standard." Sure, it came out first, but guess who wrote half the songs? Dave Mustaine. "But Briznow, they kicked Dave Mustaine out of Metallica." You bet they did. Because he was a drunk asshole, not because he didn't write kick-ass music. That's why Dave Mustaine has writing credit on Metallica's first three albums.

But you know what? To hell with these bands' first albums. Let's get down to the nitty-gritty: Master of Puppets and Ride the Lightning versus Peace Sells and Rust in Peace. All great albums, to be sure. But Megadeth's seminal works lay Metallica's to waste. Metallica's best are measured in bad-ass riffs per minute. Megadeth's are so creative and varied they're measured in bas-ass riffs per second squared. I mean, for Christ's sake, other than "Dawn Patrol," every song on Rust in Peace is as good or better than anything Metallica ever did.

Both bands are great, but as a metal fan and guitarist for most of my life, there is really no comparison for me. I could ramble on about this forever, so if anyone wants to take me to task and demand a more specific explanation about anything Megadeth/Metallica, don't hesitate to ask.

Well, at least, we agree that after Master of Puppets, Metallica is not worth talking about.

Come on now you really think ...And Justice for All is that bad? why?

quote:

Originally posted by Nick85:
Come on now you really think ...And Justice for All is that bad? why?

...And Justice for All isn't terrible by any means. However, the production is shite (primarily the drums), and many of the songs are overwrought, over-long, and repetitive. Cliff Burton's (largely unappreciated)influence was sorely missed.

Now this is a thread I can get my teeth into.

Megadeth unquestionably have better 'riffs', but the vocals often spoil things. Dave just can't sing very well, which is a shame. Some of the guitar playing on Megadeth's first 4 albums is insane. The drums are incredible - Samuelson, Behler and Feldman are much more competent than Ulrich - FACT.

As a guitarist, Dave Mustaine, Chris Poland, Jeff Young and Marty Friedman run rings around both Hammett and Hetfield.

However, Megadeth post 'Rust in Peace' are a bit patchy. They started experimenting with 'catchy vocal hooks' and the like (none of which suited Mustaine's inaccessable singing). I preferred the snarling, adrenaline fuelled nastiness of the first 4 albums. It was metal with punk attitude and occasional jazz noodling. Good stuff - wonderfully horrid and a great soundtrack to a destructive night in.

Metallica are a different kettle of badgers. Good solid riffs - very thick and crunchy. Metallica always sounded more epic and they nailed the essence of purist metal. I have a great fondeness for everything up to the black album. Unfortunately, the mighty horsemen lost it soon afterwards, spewing out a host of ill-conceived mainstream/metal crossover records that are quite painful to listen to. St Anger is truly awful.

In conclusion, I'd have to say that neither band is better. They've destroyed their legacies by releasing sub-standard records to milk more royalties from legions of deluded kids. I feel all the musicians concerned should move onto other things.

However, both bands have left us with 9 great albums and a wonderful EP of cover versions. I just wish they'd packed it in before the magic dissapeared.

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Originally posted by Duncan Black:
As a guitarist, Dave Mustaine, Chris Poland, Jeff Young and Marty Friedman run rings around both Hammett and Hetfield.

I may give you the drummers, especially Gar, but Mustaine, Poland, Young, and Friedman are hacks compared to Hammett...and that's a fact!

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Originally posted by hudson the pumpkin king:

I may give you the drummers, especially Gar, but Mustaine, Poland, Young, and Friedman are hacks compared to Hammett...and that's a fact!

Hudson, I don't know how you can say that with a straight face (assuming your face is, in fact, straight). I don't know if you're a guitarist, but Duncan and I both are (Duncan is bad-ass, I might add) and can say from experience that Hammett can't touch any of Megadeth's aforementioned axe-men.

In response to Duncan, I can't really stomach anything post-Countdown to Extinction or post-black album. And to be honest, the black album, catchy as some of the material is, is really boring from a thrash/speed metal fan's point of view. And while Countdown to Extinction tried to emulate that successful formula, it still contained some ridiculous guitar work and overall musicianship, which kept things interesting.

I agree, in part, about Dave's vocals. The fucker can't sing, but he sure as hell could snarl. But I always loved that attitude of his. Since I don't bother, for the most part, with any of their post-Rust in Peace material, the vocals perfectly suit the music.

When it's all said and done, minus Master of Puppets and maybe Ride the Lightning, I think Metallica is kinda boring. That's not to say I don't really like some of it, but it just doesn't have, for me, the same replay value as the jazz-influenced intricacies of Megadeth's best work.

quote:

Originally posted by Briznow:
Hudson, I don't know how you can say that with a straight face (assuming your face is, in fact, straight). I don't know if you're a guitarist, but Duncan and I both are (Duncan is bad-ass, I might add) and can say from experience that Hammett can't touch any of Megadeth's aforementioned axe-men.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. And honestly, i'm baffled by your conclusion. Not to mention that most guitarists and metalheads agree with me. And that's a fact.

Hudson the pumpkin king wrote -

"I may give you the drummers, especially Gar, but Mustaine, Poland, Young, and Friedman are hacks compared to Hammett...and that's a fact!"

Oh come now!

Mr Poland is an exceptional guitarist in his use of jazz/metal crossover. Flawless technique and wonderful delivery. He has a unique style that is instantly recognisable and he's very tasteful with it. Check out his solo album 'Return to Metalopolis' and be converted. It's very good stuff - seriously!

Marty Friedman may be a fret-widdler and pretty cliche, but he's a damn good fret widdler nonetheless. His use of sweep picking and exotic scales are pretty hard to emulate. Once again - flawless technique. A consumate professional, if a little generic.

Jeff Young has boundless enthusiasm. You can almost see the veins sticking out in his arms. The solos are brutally fast. He doesn't do 'pretty' solos by any means, but it's great fun to listen to and very hard to learn.

Dave Mustaine is an incredible rhythm player. Some of Mustaine's playing can actually give you hand cramps when you learn it. I have no idea where he gets the stamina from. Granted, he's not the world's best soloist, but his riffs are astonishing. His playing is determined, focussed and incredibly tight.

Kirk Hammett is... well he's not all bad. I like his use of trem dives with delay effects and wah. He really makes the guitar scream effectively. But compared to the four guys above, he just can't compete in technique or theory knowledge. Arguably, he's become a little sloppy recently, prompting Slayer's Kerry King to label him something like 'world's most overrated guitarist' (a little unfair).

When I was a teenager (in 1946 :P) Hammett was my favourite guitarist. I saw him do a 10 minute solo at the Birmingham NEC and it blew me away, but the more I learned to play, the more I saw through all the tricks. Hammett sounds great, but it's all too easy when you know how. His work 'post-Black album' has been a little dissapointing.

As I say, Hammett's good - but Mustaine, Friedman, Young and ESPECIALLY Poland are exceptional musicians.

Duncan, there's more to being a great guitarist than technique, which I don't question that the Megadeth dudes have. Hammett has composed some of the most mind blowing solos ever. And I'm just talking about fast and furious. I'm talking about geniusly devising solos that take music to another level.

Hendrix was not known for his technical prowess, rather his ability to express himself through his guitar.

That's what Hammett did with his solos. His guitar spoke in way that words can't. You couple that with Hetfields amazing guitar abilities as well, and you can understand why they were the greatest, most successful and most influential metal band off all time.

I totally understand where you're coming from.

Some of my favourite guitarists don't play technically at all. Check out Alex Newport from Fudge Tunnel or Justin Broderick from Godflesh - not technical by any means, just severely angry.

I also like the playing of Bill Frissell (experimental jazz guitarist) and Ed Wynne (ambient space rock guitarist). My favourite guitarist is Trey Spruance. I also like Frank Zappa. There's tons of stuff out there.

I was just comparing Hammett to his contemporaries. Like I say - he's good, but is he as good as those other thrash blokes? They all made their names playing technical stuff, so I assessed them accordingly.

Hammett influenced me to pick up a guitar in the first place - I listen to his music a lot. Unfortunately, after listening to so many guitarists, you start to hear the same tricks over and over, and some guitarists are better at implementing them than others.

I prefer originality and uniqueness in guitarists, but there's not a lot of that about, particularly in a genre like thrash metal.

Having said that, Dimebag Darrell was quite unique - can you call that thrash?

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Originally posted by Duncan Black:
Having said that, Dimebag Darrell was quite unique - can you call that thrash?

You can mention Dimebag along with Hammett any time. Dimebag was an extraordinary guitarist that deserves to be recognized as one of the greatest metal guitarist of all time.

Pantera and Metallica were heavy but I wouldn't call them thrash.