Anyone else here still looking for good black metal? I tend to look for the more obscure stuff these days. Recently, I picked up Weakling, a S.F. band that put out one amazing album and called it quits. Another band I've gotten into are Lugubrum. Also, I just learned about a band called Ruins of Beverast, that was formed by the former members of Nagelfar (of Virus West fame). Anyone interested in starting up a black metal conversation, here's the place to do it!

You know, i see the term Black Metal thrown out there a lot without very much of a definition of what exactly characterizes the genre.

I guess I'm looking for a definition of Black Metal. Do the following bands fit Black Metal?

Sunn 0)))
Wolves In The Throne Room
ISIS
Neurosis
Electric Wizard
Prurient
Wold
Agalloch
Celtic Frost
Deathspell Omega
Rwake
The Angelic Process

I guess I'm wondering what the difference between Black Metal and so-called "Doom" metal is. I figure the bands that kind of sound like Neurosis and ISIS don't fit the Black Metal tag, but what the hell are they? They're too slow and sludgey for death-metal; too atmospheric for metal-core (and too intelligent); but seem too aggressive to be Black Metal.

Also, sometimes i get the idea that Satanism is a kind of pre-requisite for Black Metal. Is that the case? I'm interested.

Pure black metal is generally fast, fast, fast. We're talking like hardcore punk speeds, blast beats all the way. Doom metal is slower and more based on Sabbath-y riffs. Also unlike death metal, black metal tends to have higher pitched vocals and to accentuate the higher frequencies on the guitar, and rhythms tend to be much simpler.

But all of these things really only strictly hold for the "classical" black metal bands and those who directly imitate them. Extreme metal these days is a big melting pot of influences. Blackened death, blackened doom, bleh. It results in good music, but messy taxonomy.

Of the bands you listed, I'd call Wolves, Wold, and Deathspell definitely black metal. Celtic Frost were one of the precursors of black metal.

As for Neurosis and Isis, I'd probably call them "experimental metal" or some such. Definitely not death, black, or metalcore(!).

Hmmm... So what about Skeletonwitch? Or Napalm Death/Godflesh/Jesu? By that description, it sounds kind of like Grind (i could be, and probably am, wrong); would Black Metal encompass bands like Pig Destroyer or D-Beat bands even (Discharge gets lumped in with "Hardcore" but they had some definite metal tendencies in my opinion)?

So Doom and Black Metal are definitely different, at least i know that now. I'm still a bit confused, but oh well.

Hey, it's alright to be confused. I'm confused about it myself. A lot of this stuff has as much to do with atmosphere and, frankly, fashion as it has to do with musical content. I can identify BM when I hear it, but giving a good description is harder. But I'll try.

This is my entirely subjective, not very well informed feeling, but I'd say that what distinguishes "pure" black metal the most from other genres is the tone of its riffage. It doesn't really have all that much to do with traditional metal in the Sabbath, Maiden, Metallica, whatever sense. It's more...Wagnerian, I guess you could say, especially with the more ambitious bands like Emperor. Songs are much longer than grind and developed in ways that have more to do with modern(ish) classical music than with any type of rock and roll.

And maybe most of all it's about atmosphere. Black metal makes me feel frigid, which isn't surprising considering where most of the prominent bands come from. It usually doesn't have that angry-hot feeling of brutality that death and grind do. Black metal is sorrowful and more like the yin to death metal's yang. Or at least that's my take on it.

The best way to "get" it is probably just to listen to some of the canonical BM bands, as they have an unforgettable sound. Any of the 90s stuff from groups like Emperor, Darkthrone, Mayhem, Immortal, and Gorgoroth is highly characteristic of the black metal sound, though they each have a different take on it. The first Emperor LP, In the Nightside Eclipse, is actually what got me into black metal, and I still think it's the definitive example of the genre. But I'm not an expert, and I'm not up at all on what's been going on this decade beyond the obvious bands (1349, Wolves).

What about some Burzum too? How can you talk canonical BM w/o mentioning Burzum?!

But odyssey is hitting the nail on the head. A lot of BM these days you'll see called "ambient black metal" or just "ambient metal" just because so many BM bands have moved so much to the "build and break" style.

I'm really not usually a BM fan because it's usually way too over-the-top for me. I prefer more sludge/doom/death/tech stuff.

Nice to see a lovely discussion. I guess there was some interest, after all. What we call black metal basically started with bands like Bathory, Burzum, Darkthrone, and Immortal (so called "true" black metal) - shrieking or bloody screaming vocals mixed with lightning fast drum beats and distorted, buzzing guitar with very little bass. Any band that sounds anything like the ones I just mentioned typically fall in the black metal genre. Thematically, black metal tends to focus on isolation, despair, mythology or "neo-mythology" (Tolkien, Lovecraft), and sometimes elements of national socialism (I'm certainly not defending the message, although I like the music - so take that for what it's worth). In addition to those already mentioned, here are some other prototypical black metal bands:

Ulver - only their much older material
Summoning - one of my all-time favorites - all the material is based on Tolkien (a quite common bm theme, as is Lovecraft)
Xasthur - heads a long list of one-man black metal bands very much taking after the Burzum sound; others include Leviathan, Striborg, Wrath of the Weak, and Nortt
Blut Aus Nord - more experimental or technical black metal, along the lines of Deathspell Omega or Wolves in the Throne Room

Other good ones that come to mind of late, Brown Jenkins, Gris, Ensepulchred, Forteresse, and Nagelfar.

quote:

Originally posted by ezatldude:
Forteresse

Yes sir!

quote:

Originally posted by JGlass:

quote:

Originally posted by ezatldude:
Forteresse

Yes sir!

Yeah, I remembered you like them. BTW, Weakling blows them out of the water. You really should get a listen, if you haven't. The only bm band that I would consider their superior is Burzum.

quote:

Originally posted by ezatldude:
Other good ones that come to mind of late, Brown Jenkins,

Brown Jenkins? A black metal band with a name like that, I gotta check them out.

quote:

Originally posted by odysseyandoracle:

quote:

Originally posted by ezatldude:
Other good ones that come to mind of late, Brown Jenkins,

Brown Jenkins? A black metal band with a name like that, I gotta check them out.

Apparently, it's the name of a character from one of Lovecraft's novels. So, yeah, it makes sense. Also, I should point out it's not "true" black metal, but more "blackened doom", if that makes sense. You'll hear what I mean.

Fans of The Mountain Goats may find this interesting (and yes there's a relation to black metal):

http://invisibleoranges.com/2008/05/cyt-hostis-drastus-from-womb-of.html

Okay, so i did some reading on Black Metal (I'll admit, it was on wikipedia, though i did read some of their source material), and found out what it means. Phew.

But THEN, ohhhh THEN, i started reading some lists of bands that constitute the supposed "New Wave" of Black Metal, and it seems to me that the label has kind of transformed over the years.

Is Watain Black-Metal? They don't sound like it to me, and neither do Agalloch, but some credible music resources slapped that name on 'em (Pitchfork for Watain and Pitchfork & Popmatters for Agalloch).

I imagine there's a kind of Black Metal "Purist" thing going on out there, but i do believe i read that Black Metal formed as a kind of antithetical movement in Norway against the rise of American Death Metal. Watain sounds more like Death Metal to me... But then i saw Blackened Death Metal as a genre and just got more confused.

Sidenote: I think i like John Darnielle's musical taste better than his ACTUAL music (though i think "Heretic Pride" is definitely his most rocking album, and like it quite a bit)

P4K is all over the map when it comes to black metal. The best webzine for black metal coverage was Stylus (R.I.P.). For many more good bm reviews (but very questionable politics), check out:
http://www.anus.com/metal/about/blackmetal.html

Anyway, getting back to your post. I think the Scandinavian bm bands jumped the shark a long time ago. Watain is a good example. They're way too slick for my taste. I could see one make the argument that they are more death rather than black metal, but imho that is besides the point. They flat out suck. I probably would have like them a few years ago, but I've listened to so much of this stuff, that I tend to reject the more "mainstream" stuff. Watain is like Darkthrone being filtered through American Idol (I could see David Cook doing these songs). That said, I actually think Watain would probably make a good entry point for people just starting to get into bm (worlds better than Cradle of Filth, for example).

As long as they eventually "progress" to Burzum and Weakling...

I've never been able to get into Black Metal.

I like at least something from virtually every other metal genre, but the nearest I ever got to Black Metal was Slayer and bits and pieces of Emperor.

I always find the production values favour a very thin sound, and the Satanic imagery is a bit laughable, which is odd considering that the Norweigan bands are deadly serious (literally).

The majority of Black Metal, for all it's bold efforts to be faster and more extreme than anything else, just sounds like a wasp in a bottle to my ears. It doesn't make me want to smash things, or jump around like an idiot. Additionally, the 'epic' sections always sound comical rather than doomy or evil - I remain unmoved. The technical prowess of musicianship is lost on me because for all it's speed and agility, there are no dynamics and the production often renders it inaudible.

Cradle of Filth never appealed to my metal palate. The drums are great, but that vocal sound? - No thanks! I never got into Venom either. They may have been pioneers, but they were really awful musicians. In some ways, they sound like Adrian Edmonson's satirical Bad News project.

I've also checked out Burzum, Bathory, Ackercocke and a host of other bands with enthusisam and an open mind, but they just never sound as powerful as grindcore, or as energetic as thrash. Additionally, Death Metal is always more brutal.

Am I missing something with these bands? What is the vital factor I am not looking at?

I just noticed my name and signature are pretty ironic! For the record - that is my real name and the signature is a reference to Spinal Tap.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Duncan Black,

quote:

Originally posted by Duncan Black:

Am I missing something with these bands? What is the vital factor I am not looking at?

Well, black metal is not really supposed to be brutal. It's much more about expressing feelings of cold, grim, isolation, despair, etc. The "black" in black metal is about a void or emptiness - black is the absence of light, remember? I'm not saying this so that you'll "get" it, but perhaps, it will make some more sense to you. When I listen to Burzum or Weakling, these feelings come across. You're "supposed" to listen to bm in your bedroom at night with the lights off, not in the bright of day.

Black metal can also sometimes be a gateway into other seemingly unrelated genres, such as shoegaze, drone, or electronica. A lot of folks, including myself, hear a lot of My Bloody Valentine in Burzum, although Varg said he never listened to them at the time. Some black metal bands actually transition out of the genre and are the better for it. For example, last year Alcest and Ulver put out really great albums (especially check out the former - amazing).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ezatldude,

Nice thread here. I would also consider Emperor's In The Nightside Eclipse to be the definitive black metal album.

As to Clever's reference to Watain not being black metal or having an issue with it being labeled black metal, I do not understand that. I've been into black metal for nearly 10 years and when I hear Watain the immediate genre descriptor I go to is black metal. It has the screechy vocals, blast beats, and tremolo picking all usually associated with the genre as well as the bleak outlook.

Anyone else here a Nachtmystium fan? I think their new EP Worldfall is excellent and can't wait to hear the new record.

I like pretty much a little bit of all of the styles of black metal from necro to orchestral and ambient and whatever you want to call what Deathspell Omega is doing now (post-rock/black metal?)

quote:

Originally posted by jonathanbrisby:
Nice thread here. I would also consider Emperor's In The Nightside Eclipse to be the definitive black metal album.

As to Clever's reference to Watain not being black metal or having an issue with it being labeled black metal, I do not understand that. I've been into black metal for nearly 10 years and when I hear Watain the immediate genre descriptor I go to is black metal. It has the screechy vocals, blast beats, and tremolo picking all usually associated with the genre as well as the bleak outlook.

Anyone else here a Nachtmystium fan? I think their new EP Worldfall is excellent and can't wait to hear the new record.

I like pretty much a little bit of all of the styles of black metal from necro to orchestral and ambient and whatever you want to call what Deathspell Omega is doing now (post-rock/black metal?)

Oh, i don't have an issue with Watain being labeled Black Metal (I dig 'em, i understand that ezatldude doesn't), i just kind of thought maybe they wouldn't be considered Black Metal by aficionados of the genre (which i certainly am NOT).

It seems their are several different definitions of Black Metal.

And to respond to the earlier post, not JB's, I don't think Cradle of Filth would ever be considered Black Metal in the "traditional" sense, or how i seem to understand BM. Deathspell is definitely damn good by the way.

Are Rwake Black Metal? They seem a bit like a mash of different genres, and i dig 'em a lot. Or is that "Blackened Death"?

quote:

Originally posted by ezatldude:
Well, black metal is not really supposed to be brutal. It's much more about expressing feelings of cold, grim, isolation, despair, etc. The "black" in black metal is about a void or emptiness - black is the absence of light, remember? I'm not saying this so that you'll "get" it, but perhaps, it will make some more sense to you. When I listen to Burzum or Weakling, these feelings come across. You're "supposed" to listen to bm in your bedroom at night with the lights off, not in the bright of day.

That makes a lot of sense thanks. It would also go some way to explaining why Black Metal has never appealed to me. When you come from North Wales, cold, despair and grim isolation are everyday things!

I suppose this form of music could be considered nihilistic? It certainly seems to denote a lack of emotion.

On the subject of Cradle of Filth, I can understand why black metallers would hate them. They are to Burzum what Limp Bizkit are to Rage Against the Machine! I'm fully aware that it's a cartoon version of what is a very serious genre.

Having said all of this, the people on here post some carefully considered opinions. It's a good thread.

I just checked out your link to Ulver.

Is that black metal these days?

It is worthy of further inspection - It's completely different to Burzum. I wouldn't even call it metal. Weird stuff.