Yeah, I dunno, it's like no one on the internet ever had an argument in real life before. So I called a bunch of albums i've been minimally exposed to bullshit. They are bullshit. If I had any inclination that they weren't, I'd have spent more time with them. But fuck me if for the sake of entitlement to opinion, I'm going to listen to every album that's not my thing thoroughly and without snap judgement. Those records are the kinda shit you dig, whatever; there's nothing to indicate someone who thinks carter iii is the best rap album of the year would agree with you or even find that stuff appealing at all. It's silly douchey elitist posturing thrown out to belittle somebody with absolutely no genuine motivation beyond demonstrating how enlightened and "comprehensive" your exposure base is. Sure, I was being dismissive, but the posts i was responding to amount to nothing more than snarky appeals for validation.
Originally posted by Liberalkid: Well besides Turenne's lol@ lil wayne, we were trying to be productive and suggest some good music to some people who have apparently found little of it this year. It wasn't until thalidomideNinjas referred to those albums which he hadn't listened to as bullshit, then an argument ensued, I also have no idea wtf His Dudeness is talking about. My argument to his would have been that Yankee Hotel Foxtrot has sold over 500,000 copies are you gonna call it mainstream?
Also, what could possibly be more important than winning an argument?
Whatever, I'll bite. Yes Wilco is mainstream. (Full disclosure: wilco is my favorite band) You dudes really need to let go of your silly cult of obscurity. For example, YHF has sold, to date something approaching 600,000 units. If those people who bought the album constitute the only wilco fans on the planet, that means they have 600,000 fans. Now take for example the Arizona Cardinals. There are maybe twelve people in the world who give a good fuck about the Arizona Cardinals, far less than care about Wilco. And yet no one would assert that the arizona cardinals are an 'underground' football franchise.
This comparison is a stretch. And it's stupid. But nowhere near as stupid as clinging to some ridiculous idea that you are special, better informed, more open-minded, or whatever meaningless pat on the back one would have to give himself to delude himself into assuming that the only measure of a band's visibility is whether or not two out of three people in line for the lunch buffet at kfc knows who they are; and to justify any feeling of personal accomplishment one would feel by mere virtue of being aware of something.
My forty nine year old step-uncle loves Yankee Hotel Foxtrot and his all time favorite musician is dwight yoakam. So yes, in an era where music is a free commodity to a fair majority of those who care about it, selling over a quarter million copies of your album in five months qualifies you as mainstream (referring now, to Bun B's latest). It's a better measuring stick for use in qualifying such things than whatever trumped up self important bullshit you have in mind.
Originally posted by ThalidomideNinjas!: Yeah, I dunno, it's like no one on the internet ever had an argument in real life before. So I called a bunch of albums i've been minimally exposed to bullshit. They are bullshit. If I had any inclination that they weren't, I'd have spent more time with them. But fuck me if for the sake of entitlement to opinion, I'm going to listen to every album that's not my thing thoroughly and without snap judgement. Those records are the kinda shit you dig, whatever; there's nothing to indicate someone who thinks carter iii is the best rap album of the year would agree with you or even find that stuff appealing at all. It's silly douchey elitist posturing thrown out to belittle somebody with absolutely no genuine motivation beyond demonstrating how enlightened and "comprehensive" your exposure base is. Sure, I was being dismissive, but the posts i was responding to amount to nothing more than snarky appeals for validation.
Lines like this dismiss any idea that you have any kind of rational worthwhile 'argument ' to make. You haven't listened to these albums, so objectively you shouldn't be making conclusions about them. Its inane and leads to retarded debates like, well, this one.
At least I had the decency/intelligence to give Tha Carter III a few spins before dismissing it for what it is, an overrated lyricist with an appalling flow rhyming over above average beats. Please offer similar courtesy to the rest of us before you start talking about 'bullshit' albums.
Originally posted by ThalidomideNinjas!: Yeah, I dunno, it's like no one on the internet ever had an argument in real life before. So I called a bunch of albums i've been minimally exposed to bullshit. They are bullshit. If I had any inclination that they weren't, I'd have spent more time with them. But fuck me if for the sake of entitlement to opinion, I'm going to listen to every album that's not my thing thoroughly and without snap judgement. Those records are the kinda shit you dig, whatever; there's nothing to indicate someone who thinks carter iii is the best rap album of the year would agree with you or even find that stuff appealing at all. It's silly douchey elitist posturing thrown out to belittle somebody with absolutely no genuine motivation beyond demonstrating how enlightened and "comprehensive" your exposure base is. Sure, I was being dismissive, but the posts i was responding to amount to nothing more than snarky appeals for validation.
Lines like this dismiss any idea that you have any kind of rational worthwhile 'argument ' to make. You haven't listened to these albums, so objectively you shouldn't be making conclusions about them. Its inane and leads to retarded debates like, well, this one.
At least I had the decency/intelligence to give Tha Carter III a few spins before dismissing it for what it is, an overrated lyricist with an appalling flow rhyming over above average beats. Please offer similar courtesy to the rest of us before you start talking about 'bullshit' albums.
it's pretty amazing how you completely failed to read beyond the part of my post you emphasized which completely explains everything you take issue with. Or maybe you ignore it because it calls you out for being an asshat.
Turenne referred to Tha Carter 3 as being garbage after listening to it a few times, you referred to several albums as being garbage after barely listening to any of the albums? Who's the asshat again?
Originally posted by Liberalkid: I'm sorry, did I miss something?
Turenne referred to Tha Carter 3 as being garbage after listening to it a few times, you referred to several albums as being garbage after barely listening to any of the albums? Who's the asshat again?
Yes you are missing something. I'm not denying him his opinion on carter iii, I'm saying that the 'recommendations' you guys are throwing up aren't grounded in any legitimate effort to expose this guy to 'better' music as much as they are an excuse to puff your chest up through listing more obscure releases.
And yes, as a side note, I do find everything suggested inferior to the carter iii. The madlib and murs releases are weak even among their previous work. and everything else on the list that I heard is less by mere virtue of containing nothing as good as "Mr. Carter". If not having listened to them in full strips me of an entitlement to have that opinion so be it. But we all know that no one has to give an album by an artist several listens to know whether or not they like it. It's the double standard of snobbery: ok if you do it to Ja Rule or Soulja Boy, but not to Black Spade or Ayatollah or whatever.
To which you might balk at me even comparing the two; unfortunately doing so makes you a douchebag who takes himself too seriously.
Originally posted by Liberalkid: I'm sorry, did I miss something?
Turenne referred to Tha Carter 3 as being garbage after listening to it a few times, you referred to several albums as being garbage after barely listening to any of the albums? Who's the asshat again?
Yes you are missing something. I'm not denying him his opinion on carter iii, I'm saying that the 'recommendations' you guys are throwing up aren't grounded in any legitimate effort to expose this guy to 'better' music as much as they are an excuse to puff your chest up through listing more obscure releases.
And yes, as a side note, I do find everything suggested inferior to the carter iii. The madlib and murs releases are weak even among their previous work. and everything else on the list that I heard is less by mere virtue of containing nothing as good as "Mr. Carter". If not having listened to them in full strips me of an entitlement to have that opinion so be it. But we all know that no one has to give an album by an artist several listens to know whether or not they like it. It's the double standard of snobbery: ok if you do it to Ja Rule or Soulja Boy, but not to Black Spade or Ayatollah or whatever.
To which you might balk at me even comparing the two; unfortunately doing so makes you a douchebag who takes himself too seriously.
If you don't want to hear people recommendations of "obscure" releases...
If you scoff at people's so called "snobby" tastes...
If you think making a recommendation is not just making a recommendation...
If you choose to dismiss suggestions without listening to them in their entirety (or at all)...
If you don't like people taking themselves too seriously...
You might have come to the wrong place. Might I suggest Rolling Stone? Their taste seems to be more to your liking.
Posts: 169 | Location: St Louis | Registered: 24 July 2008
You know its just become apparent to me thalidomideninjas that you're more of a dick than either Turenne or myself (even I'm surprised). I saw someone who clearly enjoyed hip-hop (crob3888), but clearly had had little luck finding good hip-hop, so I suggested some hip-hop albums that I've been enjoying this year and he may or may not have heard in the hopes of exposing him to some good music. Turenne added a few more albums to my list, so that he would have even more of a selection to consider listening to.
Then you actually started insulting the list of music Turenne and I had posted without really having listened to all of the albums. So yes obviously we're going to react in a hostile to hear some of our favorite albums of the year referred to as bullshit and all of the suddenly we're elitist because we don't like tha carter 3 and the albums we do like not enough people listen to apparently. Just reminds me why I gave up on these forums in the first place.
Originally posted by Liberalkid: ... all of the suddenly we're elitist because we don't like tha carter 3 and the albums we do like not enough people listen to apparently
I'm actually the only one that used the term elistist, and I'm sorry if you assumed I was talking about you. I actually wasn't refering to anyone specifically, just the nature of the whole conversation. The fault I see everyone as having is pressing the discussion further. It's not even a discussion about music. This is an arguement about comments that were made a long time ago and who was a bigger "asshat". It's just not worth it.
---------------------------- I'm the operator with my pocket calculator.
Originally posted by ThalidomideNinjas!: Whatever, I'll bite. Yes Wilco is mainstream. (Full disclosure: wilco is my favorite band) You dudes really need to let go of your silly cult of obscurity. For example, YHF has sold, to date something approaching 600,000 units. If those people who bought the album constitute the only wilco fans on the planet, that means they have 600,000 fans. Now take for example the Arizona Cardinals. There are maybe twelve people in the world who give a good fuck about the Arizona Cardinals, far less than care about Wilco. And yet no one would assert that the arizona cardinals are an 'underground' football franchise.
This comparison is a stretch. And it's stupid. But nowhere near as stupid as clinging to some ridiculous idea that you are special, better informed, more open-minded, or whatever meaningless pat on the back one would have to give himself to delude himself into assuming that the only measure of a band's visibility is whether or not two out of three people in line for the lunch buffet at kfc knows who they are; and to justify any feeling of personal accomplishment one would feel by mere virtue of being aware of something.
My forty nine year old step-uncle loves Yankee Hotel Foxtrot and his all time favorite musician is dwight yoakam. So yes, in an era where music is a free commodity to a fair majority of those who care about it, selling over a quarter million copies of your album in five months qualifies you as mainstream (referring now, to Bun B's latest). It's a better measuring stick for use in qualifying such things than whatever trumped up self important bullshit you have in mind.
If Wilco is mainstream, what exactly is your definition of mainstream? Just because YHF has sold almost 600,000 copies in six years? Because your uncle has heard of them? Until Wilco is all over the radio, charts, MTV/Fuse/whatever actually plays music videos on tv anymore and the majority of people have heard of them, I'm not going to consider them mainstream. I think what you're feeling to grasp (or at least include in your argument) is that mainstream vs. obscurity is not a black and white division. Wilco is closer to the middle. Groups like Daughtry and Nickelback are mainstream rock, selling millions of copy and putting out music that isn't pushing any boundaries in any slight way. Wilco is a bit more likely to experiment on their albums (btw, rumors are their next album will be more akin to YHF and AGIB!), so I think putting them on the same page as Nickelback is doing them a disservice and is a bit of a stretch. In any case, if you went up to a typical listener of mainstream rock the chances are they probably don't listen to Wilco (or even heard of them).
Posts: 283 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 09 October 2007
Originally posted by ThalidomideNinjas!: Whatever, I'll bite. Yes Wilco is mainstream. (Full disclosure: wilco is my favorite band) You dudes really need to let go of your silly cult of obscurity. For example, YHF has sold, to date something approaching 600,000 units. If those people who bought the album constitute the only wilco fans on the planet, that means they have 600,000 fans. Now take for example the Arizona Cardinals. There are maybe twelve people in the world who give a good fuck about the Arizona Cardinals, far less than care about Wilco. And yet no one would assert that the arizona cardinals are an 'underground' football franchise.
This comparison is a stretch. And it's stupid. But nowhere near as stupid as clinging to some ridiculous idea that you are special, better informed, more open-minded, or whatever meaningless pat on the back one would have to give himself to delude himself into assuming that the only measure of a band's visibility is whether or not two out of three people in line for the lunch buffet at kfc knows who they are; and to justify any feeling of personal accomplishment one would feel by mere virtue of being aware of something.
My forty nine year old step-uncle loves Yankee Hotel Foxtrot and his all time favorite musician is dwight yoakam. So yes, in an era where music is a free commodity to a fair majority of those who care about it, selling over a quarter million copies of your album in five months qualifies you as mainstream (referring now, to Bun B's latest). It's a better measuring stick for use in qualifying such things than whatever trumped up self important bullshit you have in mind.
If Wilco is mainstream, what exactly is your definition of mainstream? Just because YHF has sold almost 600,000 copies in six years? Because your uncle has heard of them? Until Wilco is all over the radio, charts, MTV/Fuse/whatever actually plays music videos on tv anymore and the majority of people have heard of them, I'm not going to consider them mainstream. I think what you're feeling to grasp (or at least include in your argument) is that mainstream vs. obscurity is not a black and white division. Wilco is closer to the middle. Groups like Daughtry and Nickelback are mainstream rock, selling millions of copy and putting out music that isn't pushing any boundaries in any slight way. Wilco is a bit more likely to experiment on their albums (btw, rumors are their next album will be more akin to YHF and AGIB!), so I think putting them on the same page as Nickelback is doing them a disservice and is a bit of a stretch. In any case, if you went up to a typical listener of mainstream rock the chances are they probably don't listen to Wilco (or even heard of them).
I would argue that there is no middle. They are only degrees. Yes Wilco is mainstream (to a significantly smaller degree than daughtry). This is an issue of people losing perspective. You say that mainstream is not an issue of black and white and then go on to put forth a definition of it that is more black and white than mine ever was. It's symptomatic of the same urge people have to love or hate anything they listen to. Every record talked about on these forums , more often than not, is either the best or worst record ever; it's silly. Wilco is an extremely popular brand (they anchored an entire volkswagon campaign; i know smaller band's see their music used in ads all the time, but i'm talking an entire five commercial ad campaign) and are not obscure or underground in the slightest. Right now their stature isn't dissimilar to R.E.M.'s. This makes them mainstream, i'm not responsible for the bastardized connotations you might attach to that word to make it seem unsavory. All i'm talking about is perspective: perspective to accurately surmise what someone might like based on what he likes, perspective to not get all uppity about someone who obviously shares little of your opinion not liking something you like. My calling those records bullshit, is my prediction that if crob3888 listened to those albums, he'd find them to be bullshit. Not bad, certainly not terrible, but in a category of "what the fuck ever".
Anyway, to get this bitch back on track. Is anyone talking about that Megapuss record, Cause if anyone is then it's over-hyped. Cause that record is fucking garbage.
Wow. I just got back to this after my previous comment from last week.
Firstly, I'd like to thank everybody for their suggestions, I'll be sure to check out a few of the releases mentioned - I don't think I'd have time to hear them all - I have heard three of them though (Invincible (loved it), PSY/OPsogist (didn't love it), and Murs (like it)), I just obviously liked them less than Carter III. I would say my hip hop tastes are pretty bland though, so I'm glad to see such a large amount of suggestions for me to peruse.
Secondly, I think that these forums are most productive when people just agree to disagree without trashing how people approach music or trashing their tastes. Let's keep things civil and just discuss music.
Originally posted by nmeiborg: If Wilco is mainstream, what exactly is your definition of mainstream? Just because YHF has sold almost 600,000 copies in six years? Because your uncle has heard of them? Until Wilco is all over the radio, charts, MTV/Fuse/whatever actually plays music videos on tv anymore and the majority of people have heard of them, I'm not going to consider them mainstream. I think what you're feeling to grasp (or at least include in your argument) is that mainstream vs. obscurity is not a black and white division. Wilco is closer to the middle. Groups like Daughtry and Nickelback are mainstream rock, selling millions of copy and putting out music that isn't pushing any boundaries in any slight way. Wilco is a bit more likely to experiment on their albums (btw, rumors are their next album will be more akin to YHF and AGIB!), so I think putting them on the same page as Nickelback is doing them a disservice and is a bit of a stretch. In any case, if you went up to a typical listener of mainstream rock the chances are they probably don't listen to Wilco (or even heard of them).
I think you are trying to put Wilco on some sort of pedestal by saying they aren’t mainstream. Perhaps its because you think mainstream is a dirty word; but Wilco is mainstream. The reasons you brought up have nothing to do with whether Wilco are mainstream or not. They’ve been won two Grammys, their albums have debuted in the top 40 of the Billboard music charts, have sold close to two million albums and their album Yankee Hotel Foxtrot went Gold. Even though you feel mainstream is a dirty word to attribute to your favorite artist, it doesn’t change the fact that Wilco are mainstream. And attempting to put them on some pedestal as better than Nickelback doesn't help your argument and just makes it seem like you are grasping for straws.
yo.
Posts: 6 | Location: canada | Registered: 26 October 2008
Well, since our little discussion appears to have killed this thread, I'll attempt to reinvigorate it. In the wake of having been released, I think we should take the time to address how undeservedly emphatic people are being over this deerhunter record. I don't even hate it. I kinda like it. But people are literally acting like this dude is somehow THE defining songwriter of this decade/our generation/whatever. This year has had it's fair share of irresponsibly over-hyped albums, but some of the claims I'm seeing about this are ridiculous.
Also, and this isn't your fault internet, my friends really over-hyped this Vivian Girls horseshit. This band is just some homely honors chicks playing video games to create the illusion of depth and personality and to try in vain to differentiate themselves from people who weren't born boring.
I'll say Vampire Weekend gets the award for "most over-hyped band of the year" award.
I would go with No Age, but i actually like them somewhat, though i do think they are a smidge over-hyped.
And i still don't really care for the new Deerhunter, and agree that the praise being slapped on it is a little odd... I don't have "Weird Era Cont." though, so maybe that will change my mind.
I think Shearwater is a bit over-hyped. The album is too short on ideas stretched too thinly over a very short time-span. I almost expected an epic when i first heard it, and it's just not doing anything for me (except the track that sounds like "Pyramid Song," which i love). I either would have wanted this album longer and more sprawling, or as an EP.
Hercules & Love Affair still boggles my mind. Maybe I'm just of the mind that disco will never be cool. If Antony weren't on this, people wouldn't wipe their ass with this album.
Girl Talk. I really don't understand what's going on here. Either the novelty wore off (I tend toward this sentiment), or this new album just isn't up to par with the last one, but people seem to like anything this dude does.
Posts: 459 | Location: California | Registered: 06 March 2008
Honestly, I think that Vampire Weekend gets called "over-rated" so much it makes them underrated... Just accept the fact it's a great pop album. Nobody's saying these guys are the second coming, and if they are, yes they're probably wrong, but it's easy to get excited over a great debut.
Personally, and I know that there will not be much agreement with this, I found the Atlas Sound album very dull. I tried hard, but just couldn't find the melodic qualities I need in an album and which people claimed were there. Also not a big fan of the MGMT album other than a couple of songs.
Originally posted by thecosmos: Honestly, I think that Vampire Weekend gets called "over-rated" so much it makes them underrated... Just accept the fact it's a great pop album. Nobody's saying these guys are the second coming, and if they are, yes they're probably wrong, but it's easy to get excited over a great debut.
Personally, and I know that there will not be much agreement with this, I found the Atlas Sound album very dull. I tried hard, but just couldn't find the melodic qualities I need in an album and which people claimed were there. Also not a big fan of the MGMT album other than a couple of songs.
Complete agreement on all three points.
From my own end, I'd like to nominate Portishead Third as one of the most critically overhyped albums of the year...don't get me wrong, I enjoy parts of it...but the old Portishead efforts were trippy and arty but at the same time full of sexual heat...Third is even more trippy, but incredibly cold, a purely intellectual exercise...it has virtually no emotional punch, something their earlier efforts had in spades.
Originally posted by colliefletch: I think you are trying to put Wilco on some sort of pedestal by saying they aren’t mainstream. Perhaps its because you think mainstream is a dirty word; but Wilco is mainstream. The reasons you brought up have nothing to do with whether Wilco are mainstream or not. They’ve been won two Grammys, their albums have debuted in the top 40 of the Billboard music charts, have sold close to two million albums and their album Yankee Hotel Foxtrot went Gold. Even though you feel mainstream is a dirty word to attribute to your favorite artist, it doesn’t change the fact that Wilco are mainstream. And attempting to put them on some pedestal as better than Nickelback doesn't help your argument and just makes it seem like you are grasping for straws.
Of course, even though we have differing opinions of what incorporates mainstream music, I am wrong and Wilco is mainstream. How wrong of me to consider otherwise. To me mainstream refers to music that is dominant in popular culture and is ordinary and familiar, therefore marketable for mass consumption. When a band reaches a certain level of popularity that doesn't automatically make them mainstream. I would consider Sonic Youth even more popular than Wilco but I still wouldn't label either band as "mainstream", since neither band's music is the norm of mainstream/modern rock. I'm not sure why I'm even bothering with this debate, considering everyone seems to have differing views of what is "mainstream" or "alternative" or "indie." Oh, and I would only have a problem with putting Wilco on a pedestal above Nickelback if Wilco kept writing the same MOR songs out over and over and over and over again.
So to try to make some attempt at staying on topic, Portishead and Of Montreal are probably the most over-hyped albums for me. Not that they're necessarily bad, but just haven't been able to get into either album.
Posts: 283 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 09 October 2007
