quote:

Originally posted by Mike:
Nice mentions with Aesop, Cannibal Ox, Mf Doom, and Sage, Sh6ne.

Question:

Everybody who takes issue with the lyrics, do you not enjoy music with bad lyrics?

Hey I listen to Anthrax - some of THE WORST lyrics ever written (pre-'Persistence of time'). And they LOVED rap - coincidence?

I still maintain that Dalek are one of the most interesting rap bands of all time. I can't think of one other rap band who utilise high-art in rap music.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:
Nice mentions with Aesop, Cannibal Ox, Mf Doom, and Sage, Sh6ne.

Question:

Everybody who takes issue with the lyrics, do you not enjoy music with bad lyrics?

This question was addressed earlier in the conversation, to which the "rap whingers" responded, 'yes, but the problem with rap in general is that the vocals are mixed so far up front that, "unlike most music (where) I can let the guitars/electronics/stupid twee indie pop instrumentation and the singer's voice just wash over me and worry about the lyrics later or not at all" (props to Dork), bad rap lyrics are impossible to avoid'.

I must say that while the initial tone of the thread set off in a decidedly negative direction, there have also been quite a few constructive contributions, and I for one appreciate those who have made suggestions for alternatives to the usual bling. I shall check some of it out.

quote:

Originally posted by sh6ne:
taken as a whole, rap is the worst genre of music hands down - from the creative process to the finished product.

90% of rap "hits" have stolen a large part (melody/ beat/ etc.)from other songs that have already been hits.

and then there's the typical rap album formula: hardcore/ street cred. song, club banger, and ballad. Add 70% filler (forgettable songs/ skits) and cameos by the posse - so each can release a solo album of equally crappy songs.

one guy (or a team) makes the beat... and then a rapper pays for it to put on his album. if the song sounds "hot", it will cost more money. so the rapper scribbles some gibberish down on paper, puts it to the beat, and then adds a seemingly catchy yet retarded chorus e.g., "it's getting hot in here, so take off all your clothes."

most of the time there's no connection between the lyrics, chorus, and beat of the song - it just is...

and let's not forget the constant objectification of women and glorification of murder, violence, and drugs.

however, all is not garbage and although I hate rap to a great extent, I place the following albums among my favorites.

Aesop Rock - Labor Days
Cannibal Ox - The Cold Vein
Del - Both Sides of the Brain
Del - Deltron 3030
EL-P - Fantastic Damage
EL-P - I'll Sleep When You're Dead
MF Doom - The Mouse and the Mask
Mr. Lif - Emergency Rations
Mr. Lif - Mo Mega
Rob Sonic - Telicatessen
Sage Francis - Personal Journals

Great post, sh6ne--I think you've clearly articulated why so much of rap seems so soulless (I understand it may not be much different with corporate rock, though at least they play their instruments, in most cases).

quote:

Originally posted by m. clayton:
Great post, sh6ne--I think you've clearly articulated why so much of rap seems so soulless (I understand it may not be much different with corporate rock, though at least they play their instruments, in most cases).

yeah, it always amazes me how rappers are able to use a relatively small word bank and present the same message over and over and over and over etc. without copying each other.

rappers are to blame, but so is the music industry. after all, it is the music industry that allows and reinforces the ideals perpetuated by these rappers.

I think back to a verse by Andre 3000 of outkast...

"true I got more fans than the average man but not enough loot to last me/ til the end of the week I live by the beat like you live check to check/ if it dont move your feet then I dont eat so we like neck to neck."

the backpackers that I mentioned (e.g., aesop, del, etc) are the unsung heroes of rap/ hip-hop. they arent respected by the black community at large; they definitely dont have the fame and notoriety of 50 Cent; and I can guarantee you that 95% of mainstream rap fans have never heard of them.

ufortunately, it's not aesop's message that popular culture gets, but lil jon's... and I dont know if that says more for popular culture or lil jon... we all know the most popular music isnt necessarily the best...

but you know, rap w/ the foul language; the sub-culture of drugs/ violence/ gangs... there's nothing good about it and I hope the music industry allows some genuinely talented people to get their hip-hop out there. there's certainly more to hip-hop than guns and sex.

Has anyone mentioned atmosphere? I probably have, but once again:

ATMOSPHERE, WU-TANG (and their various AMAZING solo albums), JMT (violence galore though), DEL THE FUNKY HOMOSAPIEN, COMMON (I love Testify), CLIPSE, KILLER MIKE, LIL WAYNE, and AESOP ROCK (Labor Days is his only album that I like a lot though).

Those are my go-to guys for rap.

Oh shit, how could I forget NAS?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JGlass,

What's wrong with singing about guns, sex and swearing while you do it?

A lot of great, lasting art through the centuries involves itself with exactly these themes.

Long as it's f***ing done well, or I'll come over there and f*** those c***'s arses with my Uzi, ha ha....

quote:

Originally posted by Ishmaels coffin:
What's wrong with singing about guns, sex and swearing while you do it?

A lot of great, lasting art through the centuries involves itself with exactly these themes.

Long as it's f***ing done well, or I'll come over there and f*** those c***'s arses with my Uzi, ha ha....

you're right! I forgot all about what made van gogh, chopin, ravel etc. so timeless!

and Shakespeare, Picasso, D.H. Lawrence, Big Joe Turner, Rolling Stones, Rabelais, Homer and Public Enemy will all be forgotten in time....

This has been a pretty great discussion. I can't really justify hating any kind of music. I have friends who absolutely rail against emo and southern rap, but I really just choose to completely ignore it. If i'm with people who listen to these things, I can usually tolerate it for at least a while. But I worked in food service for about 7 years so i'm pretty good at tuning out bullshit, and sometimes to my detriment everything else around me.

Anyway, i'll add some more suggestions. There's three labels that I really enjoy for alt hip hop.

Stones Throw-Abstact hip hop that tends to be about mostly battle rap stuff and smoking pot. Anything with Madlib's name on it is pretty enjoyable.

Madvillian-Madvilliany (Already mentioned numerous times but it bears repeating, classic.)
J-Dilla-Donuts
Jaylib-The Champion Sound
Quasimoto-The Unseen, Further Adventures of Lord Quas
Madlib-Music for Movie Soundtracks, Blunted in the Bomb Shelter
Peanut Butter Wolf-My Vinyl Weighs a Ton (If you can find it)

Definitive Jux-Sounds apocalyptic, noisy, and abrasive when El-P produces. Others like Blockhead, and RJD2 has a more smooth sound. Every album is basically a complex monolithic tomb that requires a lot of time to unravel. It's great if you like that sort of thing.

Company Flow-Funcrusher Plus (Not technically on Def Jux, but it's the blueprint for there sound)
Cannibal Ox-The Cold Vein (Probably the best the label has ever done)
El-P-Fantastic Damage, I'll Sleep When Your Dead
Aesop Rock-Labor Days
Mr. Lif-Mo Mega
RJD2-Deadringer
Cage-Hell's Winter

Rhymesayers-Earnest emotional rap that has a more classic sound generally

Atmosphere-Lucy Ford EPs, Sevens Travels (Kind be hit or miss for me, but generally pretty good)
MF Doom-Mmmm, Food
Brother Ali-Shadows of the Sun

I can't forgot Edan, Dr. Octagon, and Del (I Wish My Brother Charles Was Here is a riot). Damn, this post got kind of long. Sorry bout that.

I've been listening to Fantastic Damage since it came out, and I still can't get my head around it....how did he create such a dense, layered sound?

At times, when I listen, the sound seems to shapeshift, creating an aural equivalent of watching ripples from a stone tossed in a lake: as soon as you seem to be following one line, it disappears and becomes something more complex and queer.....all this from a genre that clearly sux balls, right?

"I dumbed down for my audience, doubled my dollars/They criticize me for it but they all yell 'holla'/If skills sold, truth be told, I'd probably be/Lyrically Talib Kweli"-Jay-Z, Moment of Clarity

The quote from Andre 3000 a few posts up jogged my memory about this line from The Black Album. Besides being one of the most honest quotes about creating music ever, it really sums up the problem with most mainstream hip hop artists.

Check out this article from Tom Breihan in the Village Voice about Biggie. It does a lot to explain why some rap artists sound the way they do. http://www.villagevoice.com/blogs/statusainthood/archiv.../ten_years_after.php

There is an unusual phenomenom in rap of artists putting out one album filled with creative energy and new ideas but then they go commercial when they figure out they could be making a lot of money. The product suffers but they get rich. Now most artists skip being creative all together and sell out right from the get go.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishmaels coffin:
and Shakespeare, Picasso, D.H. Lawrence, Big Joe Turner, Rolling Stones, Rabelais, Homer and Public Enemy will all be forgotten in time....

yes, this is very true... however, there is a fundamental difference between shakespeare/ picasso and G-Unit... whereas "guns, violence, and sex" are the crux of contemporary rap artists' music, "guns, violence, and sex" are elements of a broader medium (a play, a painting, etc) in those forementioned artists...

it's like if shakespeare were to concern every play with killing people, objectifying women, and partaking in illegal activity. i dont think he would be revered in history if this was the case and why I think youve made a terrible leap in logic...

same with the stones, picasso, etc... don't forget about this thing called frequency, like as in the frequency with which rap artists use guns, violence, and sex in each and every album. it's the message, not necessarily the means...

quote:

Originally posted by Ishmaels coffin:
I've been listening to Fantastic Damage since it came out, and I still can't get my head around it....how did he create such a dense, layered sound?

At times, when I listen, the sound seems to shapeshift, creating an aural equivalent of watching ripples from a stone tossed in a lake: as soon as you seem to be following one line, it disappears and becomes something more complex and queer.....all this from a genre that clearly sux balls, right?

im not sure if youre addressing me so I apologize in advance, but if you are adressing me... it helps to read back a page, as I said I consider fantastic damage one of my favorite albums...

overall, rap as a genre does suck (compared other genres), but that certainly doesnt mean there isnt any good rap...

quote:

Originally posted by Duncan Black:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:
Nice mentions with Aesop, Cannibal Ox, Mf Doom, and Sage, Sh6ne.

Question:

Everybody who takes issue with the lyrics, do you not enjoy music with bad lyrics?

Hey I listen to Anthrax - some of THE WORST lyrics ever written (pre-'Persistence of time'). And they LOVED rap - coincidence?

I still maintain that Dalek are one of the most interesting rap bands of all time. I can't think of one other rap band who utilise high-art in rap music.

I too like Dalek. That group got me thinking how cool it would be to fully mix ambient electronica with rap lyrics (which they sort of do). Think about some Fennesz/Tim Hecker constructed songs with a great MC spitting lyrics. It would sound pretty sweet to me.

quote:

Posted by sh6ne
it's like if shakespeare were to concern every play with killing people, objectifying women, and partaking in illegal activity. I don't think he would be revered in history if this was the case and why I think you've made a terrible leap in logic

sh6ne (how do I pronounce this?), thanx for yr thoughtful response, but I feel you have too quickly, or carelessly dismissed my argument.

Guns (or any kind of weapon), violence and sex are everything in say, The Iliad. The entire poem is a hymn to male violence and honor in battle, which is what a lot of contemporary rappers are also engaged in.

Now, I think what you are trying to say, forgive me if I misrepresent you, is more that rap is bad at doing these themes, rather than that the themes themselves are not worth covering.

Picasso's Guernica is all violence, and intends to strike in the viewer empathy or outrage, as do the lyrics of a lot of gang bangers. They don't have the eloquence of Homer or Picasso, but the conversation they are having with their audience is fundamentally the same.

Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus, equally, is a fuckin bloodbath, as enraged and full of violence as any contemporary rap album. He does it better of course.

So, I feel that you are offended by poor use of these themes rather than the use itself, or am I wrong?

quote:

Posted by sh6ne
overall, rap as a genre does suck, but that certainly doesn't mean there isn't any good rap

This is perilously close to a contradiction in terms. How does a genre suck, if there is good work being done in it? Yr comment isn't entirely clear to me.

And, yes, yr right, the EL-P comment was directed at you, and I apologize that it had been a while since I had read yr initial post.

quote:

Originally posted by IG Farben:
This has been a pretty great discussion. I can't really justify hating any kind of music. I have friends who absolutely rail against emo and southern rap, but I really just choose to completely ignore it.

Wait, emo-bashing isn't justified? (I'm talking now-adays emo music, not the semi-decent/pretty good "emo" of yesteryear... Ian Mackaye would kill me if he knew I was partially referring to his stuff)

I don't even recognize 'emo' as a genre; and it sure drives my little black clothed students nuts...oh, how I laugh..

You can bash emo all you want. I can't really hate it because I see it as something that people who are fairly younger than me listen to and it's sort of out of my sphere. Heck, if some 15 year old kid wants to latch on to some form of music, no matter how crappy it may be, then he can go right ahead.

Ian MacKaye would probably ask you politely to stop grouping him with bands that sound nothing like his work, refund your ticket, and ask you to leave.

So this post isn't completely off topic, an album about gun talk and crack dealing can be done well, but it's been done so much and has become so formulaic that it's hard to make something original on the subject. An example of a good gangster album is the latest Ghostface album. A good chunk of that album is about dealing drugs, but Ghost is such a good storyteller that it doesn't seem derivative or formulaic. Tell me the story in Shakey Dog isn't some really cool shit?

Oh, and the play Titus is good, but the movie with Anthony Hopkins is one of the most trippy and bizarre things I have ever seen.

A quote from an IMDB user re: Titus.

'And I digress... my main point is Shakespeare built his fame on being what has always been considered taboo and edgy: sex, violence, death and profanity.'

Shakey be full gangsta, yo!

Making a dude cut off his own hand to save his sons, and then killing his sons anyway, sort of gangster.

Getting revenge by making your enemy eat her own sons, priceless.