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Originally posted by Jglass:
Why do you guys expect rap music to have so much depth? Why does it need to have depth? It's rap music... I want it to be lyrics about bitches, killing, cars and drugs set to a good beat. I want to get drunk as fuck and high as hell while partying to a dude talking about drinking 40s and smoking blunts.

If you want lyrical depth, go read some poetry.

Ladies & gentlemen, this is why so much mainstream rap sucks & is full of drugs, profanity & sexism. Thanks for proving my point.

In the beginning rap was about political uprising, it had depth & meaning for the American black man. Now, it's all about the bling. This is sad.

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Originally posted by Dork:

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Originally posted by Borachon:

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Originally posted by m. clayton:
I am way turned off by the vocals. Musically, rap has evolved from the days of Grandmaster Flash, Run DMC, Public Enemy, et al; lyrically not so much. Put me in the "embarrassing dad" category if you wish, but I call 'em like I hear 'em.

I can understand your sentiment, but again, like I said earlier, I think if you generalise you definitely won't find what your looking for.

You say that rap is a let down lyrically, but you could say the same about most other genres. How many truly great lyricists are there in pop/rock/indie/alternative/whatever? The majority of lyrics and themes are recycled. "I love her". "I can't have her". "I've lost her". "Now I'm depressed". Yawn.

Agreed, as regards recycled themes, but as Dork succinctly points out below, rap does not allow the lyrics to recede behind the music, and so much of what is spouted is just so damned negative it becomes burdensome and dull. I would concede I am not well versed in recent rap offerings and would welcome suggestions for music that combines great beats/production with intriguing, non-cliched lyrics. To cite a perhaps lightweight mainstream example, Lupe Fiasco's "I Gotcha" combines a catchy beat with dynamic verbal agility and clever, upbeat lyrics. Why y'all got to be so hard ?

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This may seem like a double standard, but with most music I can let the guitars/electronics/stupid twee indie pop instrumentation and the singer's voice just wash over me and worry about the lyrics later or not at all. Rap doesn't allow that wit?ith most music I can let the guitars/electronics/stupid twee indie pop instrumentation and the singer's voice just wash over me and worry about the lyrics later or not at all. Rap doesn't allow that with its up-front vocal mixing, often minimal backing and blaring obscenities.

Haha, you're funny.

I guess this is just what it comes down to. Differing worldviews. I have no problem with most drugs, I love profanity (it's so expressive, anyone who thinks that profanity is used exclusively by the unintelligent needs to rethink that opinion), and sexism? Eh. Oh well. Call me apathetic, but the women in that society appear to embrace it rather than rebel against it.

Fucking unwind people. Honestly. Chill.

P.S. If rap music was supposed to be a cultural revolution then they went about it completely the wrong way (see: Black Panthers and many other black gangs from that time period... violence is not generally the best way for a poorly organized community with very little resources to make a large group of people with a lot of resources see your point of view)

I'm unwound & nicley chilled. Thanks.

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Originally posted by Jglass:
and sexism? Eh. Oh well. Call me apathetic, but the women in that society appear to embrace it rather than rebel against it.

Only those women who are blind by the fact that they get to be in a video. Ask any black woman with pride for herself if she thinks of herself as a b*tch & I'm betting you won't get a "YES!" In fact, you'd probably get smacked.

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(See: Black Panthers and many other black gangs from that time period...violence is not generally the best way for a poorly organized community with very little resources to make a large group of people with a lot of resources see your point of view)

Tell that to the KKK, they started it. Anyway, the Black Panther Party of Self Defense was not a violent gang, but was a group that was fighting against racism. They even teamed with other oppressed communities, black or not. (I know it's no longer "Black History Month", but learning should be a year round activity.)

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Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
I'm unwound & nicley chilled. Thanks.

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Originally posted by Jglass:
and sexism? Eh. Oh well. Call me apathetic, but the women in that society appear to embrace it rather than rebel against it.

Only those women who are blind by the fact that they get to be in a video. Ask any black woman with pride for herself if she thinks of herself as a b*tch & I'm betting you won't get a "YES!" In fact, you'd probably get smacked.

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(See: Black Panthers and many other black gangs from that time period...violence is not generally the best way for a poorly organized community with very little resources to make a large group of people with a lot of resources see your point of view)

Tell that to the KKK, they started it. Anyway, the Black Panther Party of Self Defense was not a violent gang, but was a group that was fighting against racism. They even teamed with other oppressed communities, black or not. (I know it's no longer "Black History Month", but learning should be a year round activity.)

I guess ignorance is key because being called "bitches" or "hoes" ddidn't seem to bother the girls I went to highschool with.

And I guess my history lessons have been off because I've been taught that the Black Panthers were very fond of "fighting back" with... well, violence.

If the Black Panthers example doesn't work, then, back to the gang example. See: "Black Disciples", "Gangster Disciples" (who eventually united), and "Black P-Stone Rangers".

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Originally posted by Jglass:

Differing worldviews. I have no problem with most drugs, I love profanity (it's so expressive, anyone who thinks that profanity is used exclusively by the unintelligent needs to rethink that opinion),

Differing worldviews? Not neccesarily; in this case at least, more like differing generations. I am guessing you are 20-something, an age at which I had "no problem" (depends on one's interpretation, I suppose) with most recreational drugs; in fact I embraced them rather gleefully. As far as profanity, it is useful at times to express a passionately held opinion, or to grab someone's attention, but too much and you've diluted its impact. As far as the "unintelligent" i.e., un- or undereducated, they've no choice but to use profanities since they are limited in terms of their available vocabulary (I know; I have plenty of experience being around people of lesser education). You on the other hand appear well-educated, and therefore you have a choice. When you suggest you "love profanity" I'm guessing you are being a bit of a provocateur, no? (I was when I was 20-something)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: m. clayton,

quote:

Originally posted by Jglass:
I guess ignorance is key because being called "bitches" or "hoes" ddidn't seem to bother the girls I went to highschool with.

I'm also sure you know the opinions of teenage girls is completely different than grown women. The GROWN women in the videos are sad examples of the values of the average black woman. Ask an adult on the street & see what answer you get.

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If the Black Panthers example doesn't work, then, back to the gang example. See: "Black Disciples", "Gangster Disciples" (who eventually united), and "Black P-Stone Rangers".

You do realize gangs aren't just comprised of black people, right? They also don't ALL listen to rap.

We're getting a little OFF TOPIC. My point is RAP wasn't originally created to degrade women & support drug use. In the early days, Dr. Dre actually denied using marajuana because it was "whack", but after quickly changing his mind on the subject, he comes out with 'The Chronic', thus starting the trend of "Gangsta Rap". Once middle America got wind of it, rappers learned they wanted raps on b*tches, hoes, & bling. This wasn't the intent of the "Pioneers" of rap. Rap was intended for "good times, parties, & friendship". Public Enemy came out with political messages as have Ice-T & KRS-One. In the beginning RAP was alot more & there are still a few who still remember that. Those are the ones I listen to. That is my point, is all.

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Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:

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Originally posted by Jglass:
I guess ignorance is key because being called "bitches" or "hoes" ddidn't seem to bother the girls I went to highschool with.

I'm also sure you know the opinions of teenage girls is completely different than grown women. The GROWN women in the videos are sad examples of the values of the average black woman. Ask an adult on the street & see what answer you get.

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If the Black Panthers example doesn't work, then, back to the gang example. See: "Black Disciples", "Gangster Disciples" (who eventually united), and "Black P-Stone Rangers".

You do realize gangs aren't just comprised of black people, right? They also don't ALL listen to rap.

These gangs were composed entirely of black people. That's why I cited them...

Anyways, like most super-genres, rap is composed mostly of shit. Can we all agree on that?

It's invalid to use the excuse "they use too much profanity, they degrade women," etc because we forget how tied down hip hop is to a very specific culture. Like with Nas' Illmatic for example- the lyrics are insightful- but more importantly, they paint a portrait of a culture that many music connoisseurs know little of.

Firstly, I'll just come and say "no", rap doesn't suck.

White suburban teenage male, admittedly the anger and violence and swagger are appealing. However, they're only appealing to me when they're done well (see: Wu-Tang Clan) that No Limit shit with the identical covers that looked like they were made in Photoshop can take a hike.

I think one thing I really have to say, for me personally at least, music's not so much about what you say, but how you say it. I love great songwriting as much as the next guy, but I really don't have to agree with it to like it, honestly. I definitely don't support violence and destroying the inner city with crack and etc. etc. but I'll be damned if it doesn't make for great art sometimes. Take Mobb Deep: art school students, probably lived nothing they rapped about on The Infamous. But, it's been called one of the most accurate portrayals of street life ever, and it's damn good IMO. I'll have to bring up Eminem too, sorta the same but different. On " '97 Bonnie & Clyde" he describes murdering his wife, her new lover and her new lover's son, kidnapping his daughter and using her to dump the bodies in a lake. Would I ever support it in real life, of course not. But it's different because A) He's White B) (Hopefully) nobody thinks this depiction is very realistic. Your stream of rappers not only admitting to pushing/violence/misogyny/etc but maybe glorify it, yes I think it's part of a negative cycle. But, like Big said "If I wasn't in the rap game, I'd probably have a key knee deep in the crack game/'Cause the streets is a short stop, either you're slingin' crack rock or you got a wicked jump shot". At the same time, inner city youth can say "Shit, I can just rap about this instead of actually living it" and I gotta think that's better than actually doing it.

So, more than anything I just want rap music like all music to challenge itself and try new things. Last example: Outkast. I have a lot of White friends who say they hate rap "except Outkast" (and usually Kanye West too.) Listen to Stankonia. The musical amalgam is phenomenal. And they talk explictly about the rap stereotype(s) (I made a critic shit her drawers/she said she thought hip-hop was only guns and alcohol/I said oh hell nah) but also say some...pretty graphic sexual things. But they're not misogynists, which brings me to another point: There's a different between liking promiscuous sex or subjugating a woman in the bedroom (the bedroom is a whole different world) and thinking they're all hos, which is real misogyny. So, you know, if you don't like listening to rap it's just a personal thing, but to think it's all x y or z, especially in the wealth of different styles and the very different underground, bothers me a little I gotta say. There's still uplifting, experimental, incredible hip hop still being made if you know where to look.

Welcome to the site Nhaz, and i agree with you 100%.

If you look at the hip hop greats, anyone can see that it has not, does not, and will never "suck." So much has been done and so much left to do, we are just getting started with the genre, don't let the bad lyrics over shitty beats the play on the radio fool you, there are some giants stirrin'.

Nas, Mos Def, Talib Qweli, Cage, Aesop, Buck 65, Wu Tang Clan, Guru, Common, Outkast, all represent a well recognized past and there is still more to come.

This thread forced me to put on some hip hop.

Now Playing: "One Love" Nas

Ah, how refreshing. Thank you for those two great posts Nhazghaal and Mike. You two said everything I would have wanted to say but without making myself look like a fool. Great posts, and Mike, sorry to burst your bubble, but it is spelled Kweli, not Qweli.

Bubble not bursted, I always spell things how I say them.

Now Playing:

"D Original" Jeru the Damaja

Followed by:

"Nice" L.E.G.A.C.Y.

Now:

"Lovin' It" Little Brother

Now:

"Earth People" Dr. Octagon

Listen to these tracks and you will find an immediate answer to your question.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: St. Mike,

I went to the Paid Dues music festival yesterday, which is sponsored by Def Jux (I believe) and featured a handful of hugely impressive, underground rap and hip-hop acts. It was a blast, though my ears are still ringing...

Anyhow, I was really, REALLY impressed with Jean Grae. I had never heard anything of hers prior to the show, and she did an outstanding job of really captivating the audience. I'm almost nervous to listen to any of her studio recordings -- just in case they aren't as engaging as they are live.

In addition to her, Cage, Mr. Lif, and Blackalicious were outstanding. But I expected that



As a side note, Cannibal Ox's The Cold Vein, probably my favorite hip-hop/rap album EVER, has been in heavy rotation lately. I would suggest it to anyone who thinks, heaven forbid, that rap music sucks.

Nice mention of The Cold Vein, that is some original hip hop.

This ain't rap, but sometimes I believe that people should just chill!


For example, this makes me laugh my ass off! Besides the fact that it's beautiful!!

Hahahahahaha. WOW.

http://www.metacritic.com/music/artists/madvillain/madvillainy?q=madvillain

you can't listen to that and call rap music shit.

i'm not an aficionado of rap... i'm more of a dabbler in what the consensus calls good rap.

but that doesn't matter. after listening to an album like this (and this is just an example), what more do you want out of music in general? this is fiercely creative, captivating, and genuinely artistic music.

All genres are largely comprised of plagerists trying to cash in on a certain 'sound'. Despite this, you can't throw an entire genre out unless you've heard every single artist - to say it all sucks is a massive oversight.

Has no-one here heard Dalek?