I don't even understand what you guys are arguing about anymore? Eric and Vitunk, are you guys questioning that gay artists alter their lyrics in order to not receive abuse and (perhaps) unpopularity? I don't think you are, so I don't understand what all the fuss is about here. Does it matter whether or not there are albums that do not discuss love or sexuality? It seems like a non-sequitur to me.

quote:

Originally posted by vitunkrapula:
Just going through my collection out of curiousity. Here's what I've found so far (not completely but pretty sure about these)

Robert Wyatt - Rock Bottom
Holy Modal Rounders - indian war whoop
modest mouse - lonesome crowded west
halo benders - god don't make no junk
polvo - exploded drawing
wu-tang - 36 chambers
pink floyd - the piper at the gates of dawn

I don't think anything by the boredoms has anything to do with sex, ditto for most of, if not all deerhoof

Some of those might be gertrude stein I guess. That seems kinda cheap to me though. but not modest mouse. I think that one's pretty solid.

modest mouse sucks. they don't count. float on? i mean, what the hell was that about? maybe i'm wrong and they are a good band. after all, they WERE featured on FOX's hit show, The O.C.

Even if you are right about those albums, I bet they are very ethereal and post-modern or sort of concerned with other stuff.

incidentally, suicidal poets tend to talk less about other people right before they commit suicide. they talk about other people waaaay less than other poets.

I bet you that 90% of the CDs you found in your collection have lyricists that suffered mental breakdowns or severe depression or severe drug addition. No one accidentally stumbles upon ethereal lyrics.

hell if I know. My best guess is this: toosad and drogan were lamenting the predominance of hetero oriented music. So we were thinking of music made by hets but not explicitly referencing hetero sex. or I have no idea what is going on, which is maybe more likely.

quote:

It seems like a non-sequitur to me.

I agree. Condoleeza Rice is the sexiest member of the Bush administration.

I was trying to hunt down something that has less cryptic lyics and doesn't reference heterosexual sex. Metallica's Master of Puppets (and probably alot of the early Metallica stuff) makes no references to it.

Another album I thought of that just about fits the bill is Tim by the Replacements. However, I would say that "Little Mascara" is almost definitely about a chick, although Westerberg never uses a gender specific pronoun. There is a line about "you're staying together for the kids" though, and that makes me think there's probably some hetero lovin' going on somewhere, unless it's a gay couple that adopted.

You're just slapping extra qualifications on left and right when something doesn't fit your half baked theories.

on LCW, there are songs about driving, white trash and doin the cockroach. those are not ethereal. If you want to question his sanity you can but that has nothing to do with anything.

and what about wu tang? daft punk? kraftwerk? fela kuti? junior boys? antony and the johnsons do some gender bending...

okay...

I'M WRONG!!!!

But if you look at the ratio of albums by straight people that mention opposite sex attraction versus the albums by straight people that don't mention the opposite sex, the ratio is going to be like 900:1.

For gay people, it's going to be 1:10.

In other words, at least 99% of straight musicians refer to opposite sex attraction, and with gay people, it can't be anything more than 30%, and I would guess it's more like 5% -- unless you count closted gay musicians from all eras, in which case, it's probably 0%, if you are rounding to the nearest integer.

I'd like to reiterate that Condoleeza Rice is the sexiest member of the Bush administration. I would sooo do her.

P.S. I bet all of those straight lyricists you mentioned (who don't talk about how hot some chick is or how they love some girl's soft hair) -- I bet you that all of those lyricists have either been seriously depressed, had serious addiction issues, or have had mental breakdowns.

quote:

Originally posted by RavingLunatic:
Eric and Vitunk, are you guys questioning that gay artists alter their lyrics in order to not receive abuse and (perhaps) unpopularity?

No. Gothy had said that there were no albums by straight artists that didn't make any gender specific references to heterosexual love. I was quick to point out Kid A, but he said that that didn't count because the lyrics were too weird and he didn't know what the lyrics meant. So I was trying to find some other stuff, with easier to comprehend lyrics that features no gender specific love songs. It's a stupid argument, sure, but I can't refuse a challenge like that RL.

ok ok ok. just as long I WIN...I'll put in a good word with Condie. you wouldn't do ole GW? cos he could be pretty powerful in the sack.

quote:

Originally posted by vitunkrapula:
ok ok ok. just as long I WIN...I'll put in a good word with Condie.

shagadelic.

You win by technicality. You won the battle, but I still have the nukes.

AKA you were right about one tiny thing that was incidental to the argument. It's a peasant throwing rocks at a tank in Teiniman Square:

"I did it! I did it! I hit the tank with a rock. TAKE THAT COMMUNISM!"

cruuuuuuuush.

(Incidentally, I believe the US should invade China and force democrascy upon them. Communism is fuuuucked up. We're number 1! Manifest Destiny forever!!! But seriously, all this talk is counter-revolutionary. But I am serious about going to war with China. This is relivant -- because it's like how the US sits back on its big glutonous ass when pro-democracy warriors are in prison cells (like that chinese female nobel peace prize winner). It's disgusting that we let shit like that happen. It's the same thing as sort of turning a blind eye to this whole gay thing. "Oh, it's fine... Everyone is entitled to their own culture. If gay people want to cower in fear, that's just a part of their culture." YUCK.)

quote:

Originally posted by toosadtobegoth:
I bet you that all of those lyricists have either been seriously depressed, had serious addiction issues, or have had mental breakdowns.

Dude, if you're going to disqualify all the rockers who've had addiction issues, we're pretty much limited to KISS and Ted Nugent. And all they wrote about was banging chicks (and in Uncle Ted's case, hunting).

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:
It's a stupid argument, sure, but I can't refuse a challenge like that RL.

That's not a challenge, that's a gimme.

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:

quote:

Originally posted by toosadtobegoth:
I bet you that all of those lyricists have either been seriously depressed, had serious addiction issues, or have had mental breakdowns.

Dude, if you're going to disqualify all the rockers who've had addiction issues, we're pretty much limited to KISS and Ted Nugent. And all they wrote about was banging chicks (and in Uncle Ted's case, hunting).

SERIOUS ADDICTION ISSUES.
SERIOUS DEPRESSION.
SERIOUS MENTAL BREAKDOWNS.

I'm talking suicide attempts, I'm talking hospitalizations, multiple rehab places, I'm talking serious fucking issues.

And this topic has never been contrained to rock. For fucks sake we were talking about Elton John. That's the opposite of rock.

P.S. I must depart for a bit. I'm literally supposed to be doing this big thing, and it's due on monday, and I'm basically fucked because of the internet. I am unplugging my connection.

P.P.S. Just remember that if you think I'm wrong, then you're wrong. This also applies to the previous statement.

toosad - much better. I can understand where you're coming from now. The problem is that you can't just up and make people stop cowering in fear. They are the only ones who can stand up for themselves. The same goes for this "spreading democracy" stuff. It's not really our decision to make whether a country wants it or not. It doesn't matter if it's the greatest goddamn thing ever invented. They have to choose it, or it's just no good.

quote:

Originally posted by vitunkrapula:
toosad - much better. I can understand where you're coming from now. The problem is that you can't just up and make people stop cowering in fear. They are the only ones who can stand up for themselves.

My hole point was that people were saying it's not a big deal, they are making an artistic choice, they don't have to let people know about their private life, why are you making a big deal about this, they don't want to gross out their audience, you can be uncompromising while compromising... all this bullshit.

The truth is gay musicians censor themselves for whatever reasons, but it is a big fucking deal, and it's not an artistic choice.

And it's not a small artistic choice. It's not like tons of people make that artistic choice. It's a small small small minority of people, usually people with really fucked up issues.

The point is that, based on the numbers, it is clearly not an artistic choice when most gay people do this and it clearly is a big deal.

I mean, maybe some gay people don't care. But the point is that it isn't some casual thing -- like "oh, well, I guess I'll just make a bunch of bland gender-neutral non-edgy songs about bland topics that everyone can relate to, thus creating a bland product" (ie elton john). I mean gay people don't give a fuck, but it is a big limitation -- it's not something most people randomly do.

Yeah. Fight the power!

Speaking of power, I lack the will power to start working on my big project that is due on Monday! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! I hope the machine doesn't eat me.

If people are idiots and pressure gays into self-censorship, yeah it sucks, and it is a big deal. But scaring the idiots into pressuring the gays into some weird inverse of censorship, which the idiots don't really believe in because they are, after all, idiots, won't work either. I think that it's such a big deal it needs some time. To paraphrase RL, we just need to wait for the idiots to die off. I guess that's not the only thing... maybe some peace love and understanding? fuck I dunno

Speaking for myself as a songwriter, I don't talk explicitly about sex, but not out of anything to do with censorship. It's been done so many times before that I'm frankly just bored with it - not with sex, but with writing lyrics about girls and how hawt they are or whatever. there are so many other things that interest me and are fun to write about. and I was thinking that it could be pretty much the same for some gays - like matmos, for example. and not writing about sex would be SO much more convenient for them. You wouldn't have to deal with a lot of shit. But I'm not sure if that's a clear cut case of self censorship. just being more selective of what you put your energy into.

I regret planting the seed that LED to all that, wow.

I don't think toosad is being belligerent here, and I think that's kind of obvious. I think he's intense, very intense, about who he is, and I have a lot of respect for that.

This entire argument reminds me of a "West Wing" quote (but what doesn't, right?).

Backstory: A WW senior staffer is talking to a gay Republican (hold on, hold on...) long into the night about DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act. I'll presume that you guys already know or can figure out what all that's about.

This gay Republican is essentially selling himself and his ilk out just to be loyal to his party, either because he's not principled enough or because he's just that loyal. The liberal Democrat senior staffer (Josh), after many hours, is frustrated and screaming. Ditto for the log cabin Repub (Skinner) Here's how the conversation goes.

quote:

JOSH
How can you be a member of this party?!?

SKINNER
You've been holding that in for way too long, man.

JOSH
This party who says that who you are is against the law.

SKINNER
You know, I never understand why you gun control people don't all join the N.R.A. They've got two million members. You bring three million to the next meeting... call a vote... All those in favor of tossing guns - [Snaps fingers] - Bam! Move on.

JOSH
That's a heck of a strategy, Matt. I'll bring that up in a meeting.

Josh sighs heavily as he collapses into his chair.

SKINNER
I agree with 95% of the Republican platform. I believe in local government. I'm in favor
of individual rights rather than group rights. I believe free markets lead to free people
and that the country needs a strong national defense. But my life doesn't have to be about being a homosexual. It doesn't have to be entirely about that.

I'll leave it up to you guys to draw the obvious parallels from that excerpt and this discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by Yay!:
I don't think toosad is being belligerent here, and I think that's kind of obvious. I think he's intense, very intense, about who he is, and I have a lot of respect for that.

FUCK YOU.

quote:

Originally posted by vitunkrapula:
Speaking for myself as a songwriter, I don't talk explicitly about sex, but not out of anything to do with censorship.

I would bet all my money that you have been seriously depressed at some point.

ALL MY MONEY ON 27 BLACK!

quote:

Originally posted by toosadtobegoth:

quote:

Originally posted by Yay!:
I don't think toosad is being belligerent here, and I think that's kind of obvious. I think he's intense, very intense, about who he is, and I have a lot of respect for that.

FUCK YOU.

It's nice to see constructive discussion lives and breathes in this thread. Wow.