Though I don't agree with toosadtobegoth's foul language and name calling, he's hitting on the same frustration that drives me to find that elusive gay artist out there that writes music that isn't sexually ambiguous yet also writes music that is conventional and listenable (not Xiu Xiu, though bless their hearts for making one of my favorite indie albums, Fabulous Muscles).

In this situation, it might be hard for straight music fans to understand what its like to be gay and have all the music deemed popular by the media be strictly about heterosexuality. We luckily now have many, many more options than ever with indie-music and the dance music scene that started in the 90s (and you can even go back to Soft Cell and Frankie Goes to Hollywood from the 80s, and who knows how much further back you can go for this). But, still, there's no music with clearly defined gay themes catering to our demographic on the mainstream radio or mainstream TV or wherever most people hear new music nowadays. It's all straight, all the time in the mainstream media.

Toosadtobegoth, it seems as though you have experienced a lot of frustration in trying to pursue a career in music without sacrificing your convictions and gay pride. Perhaps you can tell us more about how being gay and wanting to write music with gay themes has prevented you and your band from getting into the music industry?

quote:

Originally posted by toosadtobegoth:
AND IF YOU LEAVE OUT GENDER COMPLETELY, that's not a fucking artistic choice. THAT'S A COWARDLY POLITICAL CHOICE.

No one is under a duty to talk about being gay. But not talking about it is going out of your fucking way to not offend people. It's not simply a matter of a border between personal life and private.

Yeah, it's a political choice, but it's also a personal choice, and I don't think we have any right to condemn artists that don't want to put up with the crap they would have to suffer through if they wrote openly gay lyrics. We all make these kind of decisions every day. When someone you don't know real well says something you strongly disagree with, you don't confront them over it. You just say yeah and nod your head. That's what I do at least. Now if you want to get in that guy's face, that's fine, but I don't think you've got any right to slam me for being politic.

Do you also condemn all the American slaves who didn't revolt or try to escape? What if they hid their resentment at their masters so that they wouldn't get the shit whipped out of them? It's not our place to blame anyone for not standing up for what they believe in. They're the ones who have to deal with the consequences.

quote:

Originally posted by droganzundt:
In this situation, it might be hard for straight music fans to understand what its like to be gay and have all the music deemed popular by the media be strictly about heterosexuality.

Well, part of my argument was that all music's not strictly about sexuality (hetero, homo, or ambiguous). Not by a longshot. Part of goth-boy's angry post seemed to imply that the only two choices for topics in music were gender specific love/sex songs and nonsensical Gertrude Stein-esque ramblings. You're either Beck or Justin Timberlake. There's a wide variety of lyrical content by straight artists that doesn't specifically cater to the hetero crowd. And I see no reason why gay artists should have to write songs that specifically cater to the gay crowd, or they be deemed sellouts.

quote:

Originally posted by droganzundt:
In this situation, it might be hard for straight music fans to understand what its like to be gay and have all the music deemed popular by the media be strictly about heterosexuality.

And this:
It's all straight, all the time in the mainstream media.

Yes, being a minority is uncomfortable. I don't claim to know what it's like to be gay, but have a faint inkling from being in foreign countries where no-one speaks english.

But I am not going to apologize for being part of the majority. THAT would be selling out. Media is predominantly hetero because the population is primarily hetero. That is just the way it goes - it could change in the future, and then I would be the minority. In which case I would be the one who would have to suck it up (pun intended? I'm not sure hehe) and deal with it. If you want to see more bands catering to the gay population - Go Sing It! I have absolutely no problem with that. But this talk about "There needs to be more blank" is in itself a form of censorship. So be careful what you wish for.

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:

quote:

Originally posted by droganzundt:
In this situation, it might be hard for straight music fans to understand what its like to be gay and have all the music deemed popular by the media be strictly about heterosexuality.

Well, part of my argument was that all music's not strictly about sexuality (hetero, homo, or ambiguous). Not by a longshot. Part of goth-boy's angry post seemed to imply that the only two choices for topics in music were gender specific love/sex songs and nonsensical Gertrude Stein-esque ramblings. You're either Beck or Justin Timberlake. There's a wide variety of lyrical content by straight artists that doesn't specifically cater to the hetero crowd. And I see no reason why gay artists should have to write songs that specifically cater to the gay crowd, or they be deemed sellouts.

Of course there's other topics in songs other than love. There's all sorts of things bands sing about: U2 sang almost strictly about war/politics and religion in their first two albums, Public Enemy wrote songs about racial inequality and politics, Radiohead writes songs about the isolation of modern society, and Green Day's last album was almost completely about politics. The thing is, these bands ALSO sing about lovin', and its almost always about heterosexuality in mainstream music. It's the same in movies: name more than a dozen mainstream (not indie) movies with homosexual love as the main storyline in the last ten years. Not a whole lot. At least not the mainstream movies I've been aware of the last ten years.

The ultimate point I was trying to make is that, yes, GLBT people are a minority, and it would be nice to have some presence in the mainstream media every once in a while like all minorities deserve. If you take the statistic of 5-8% of all people are GLBT, then you would hope that we would have at least 5-8% representation in the mainstream music media. But this doesn't happen, and it's because of society and it's just simply the way things are, and its terrrible and it's hopefully something that will work itself out eventually.

What I want people to think about is all the lonely, closety gay teenagers out there growing up in middle-class suburbia... they don't have music with GLBT themes to attach themselves too. Sure, they have the droopy emo music they could probably relate to, but they don't have a mainstream pop/rock artist in the mainstream that sings about their lives and their feelings the way the straight kids get. And lets face it, when you're a young teenagers, you're listening to music about sex and love. Generalization, yes, but I think it makes sense.

Also, I would like to reiterate toosadtobegoth's argument in an earlier that straight artists aren't forced into sexual ambiguity/pronoun soup the way gay artists are, and that's an inequality that as a gay man I find to be extremely frustrating. Why is that Jack White can sing all he wants about falling in love with a girl while Morrissey or Bob Mould take the non-pronoun route in their love songs? (This is assuming Morrissey is gay, and you can see my other posts in this thread about him about my argument about him). To me, this feels like a gay man's love for another gay man isn't as important as a straight man's love for a woman. Which is completely ignorant and wrong, since it's a genetic difference.

As for gay artists HAVING to sing about gay lovin', and if they don't they're sellouts, I think that's a political ideology that's a little extreme. I think when people think along those lines, they just ultimately want there to be more sexual orientation equality, and they want everyone to do everything in their power to achieve this. But GLBT artists are not obligated to do this, that would be wrong (in my opinion).

Franz Ferdinand scored a pretty decent hit with "Michael."

The Magnetic Fields have "Papa was a Rodeo," which is a gay love song.

The members of Matmos are a gay couple. They don't keep it a secret, but they don't make it a huge issue in their music.

Here's an article I found about Willie Nelson's recently recorded song "Cowboys Are Frequently Secretly Fond of Each Other." In the article he says "The timing's right for it to come out. I'm just opening the door."

RL mentioned people becoming gradually more accepting of GLBT, and I agree. Another pretty good sign is this whole anti gay-marriage hullabaloo as of late. The conservatives are all up in arms about this perceived shift - they feel as if they are defending 'their' holy rite of matrimony from all the perverts (which is complete nonsense, but it's their illusion of the need to defend that I was getting at.).

However, as far back as 1972, people were making love songs for homosexuals. There's an album by Girouard and Tremblay called Le Couple, featuring songs by Jacques Brel (an amazing songwriter, btw) and Edith Piaf.

http://www.queermusicheritage.com/gaymarriage.html

So it's out there - you may need to do some looking, but there are such things as gay love songs.

quote:

Originally posted by droganzundt:
Also, I would like to reiterate toosadtobegoth's argument in an earlier that straight artists aren't forced into sexual ambiguity/pronoun soup the way gay artists are, and that's an inequality that as a gay man I find to be extremely frustrating. Why is that Jack White can sing all he wants about falling in love with a girl while Morrissey or Bob Mould take the non-pronoun route in their love songs? (This is assuming Morrissey is gay, and you can see my other posts in this thread about him about my argument about him). To me, this feels like a gay man's love for another gay man isn't as important as a straight man's love for a woman. Which is completely ignorant and wrong, since it's a genetic difference.

I hear what you're saying about the sexually ambiguous songs, and yeah it sucks that any artist feels they need to tailor their lyrics for their audience. However, again, I don't necessarily see artists who do it as sellouts. For me, some the most timeless (love/sex-related) songs aren't really specific about who they're being sung to.

Around the time I was writing my last post, the Rolling Stones' "Let's Spend the Night Together" popped up on iTunes player. I've heard that song a zillion times and it's obviously about sex, but I never noticed before today that it's sung in a completely gender neutral way. Mick Jagger and Keith Richards managed to write a terrific, timeless classic that's completely sexually ambiguous yet all about sex. Not heterosexual sex, not homosexual sex, just sex.

FACT

IF YOU AREN'T SINGING TO A SPECIFIC PERSON (THE SECOND PERSON FORM), YOU CANNOT HAVE A SONG ABOUT THREE PEOPLE WITHOUT REFERENCING GENDER IF IT IS EVEN MILDLY INTERESTING.

I'm not fucking talking about a love song.

Let's illustrate by example:

You are writing a song about a crazy road-trip you had with a friend or friends and you want to talk about your exploits or drunken rowdyness or adventures.

WITHOUT WRITING A SONG TO A SPECIFIC PERSON (IE "MEETING YOU ON THE ROAD TRIP WAS SO GROOVY") YOU WRITE SOMETHING AUTHENTIC ABOUT A FUCKING ROAD TRIP AND ROWDY BEHAVIOR INVOLVING MORE THAN 2 PEOPLE WITHOUT REFERENCING GENDER IN A NON-SEXUAL WAY AND HAVE IT NOT SUCK!

DO IT! PROVE ME WRONG DIPSHIT! PROVE ME WRONG!

This includes flirting at a bar. This includes one night stands. And this isn't a love song, so you aren't singing it to a specific person. It can't be "My friend and I went on a roadtrip and we walked into a bar. I saw you standing there and I said Holy fucking g0d." That doesn't count.

Here's a better example: "My friend and I walked into a bar and I saw this really cool creature. I really wanted to see a double feature with the creature so we could fuck in my kia sophia while eating slizes of pizza."

-THAT LAST EXAMPLE DOESN'T COUNT.

That's not a fucking issue about love songs.

You are even more stupider than I hadn't never thought. Maybe stupidity is a adaptive traight that helps people bread and servive. Speaking of adaptive behavior, I need a hit from my crack pipe. I'm trying to emulate Pete Dowerty and his feux-gayishness.

SO WHERE'S MY FUCKING EXAMPLE?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: toosadtobegoth,

toosadtobegoth - This is the last time I'm going to bother replying to your nonsense unless you tone down the hostility and at least try to write with some semblance of English grammar. How the fuck am I to take you seriously when you say things like

quote:

You are even more stupider than I hadn't never thought.

quote:

FACT

YOU CANNOT HAVE A SONG ABOUT THREE PEOPLE WITHOUT REFERENCING GENDER IF IT IS EVEN MILDLY INTERESTING.

You can't coherently claim something to be a fact if it involves highly subjective terms like "interesting." It's very likely that many things I find interesting would bore you to tears and vice versa.

So there, QED. You are hereby proved wrong on the grounds that you can't form a coherent argument. Try again.

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:
I can name about a zillion love songs by straight artists that are non-specific when it comes to gender.

And yet, I can't name any album by a straight musicians that makes NO references to the liking the opposite sex.

I guess I'm a fool who takes "facts" out of context and in order to make an argument that is completely fake. It's almost like I am manipulating language, facts, and words to create the illusion of a coherent argument.

Wow. You made some amazing points there. I totally agree with EVERYTHING that you said.

quote:

Originally posted by vitunkrapula:

You can't coherently claim something to be a fact if it involves highly subjective terms like "interesting." It's very likely that many things I find interesting would bore you to tears and vice versa.

here's my definition for interesting:

if 100 people were given 4 hours to write lyrics on a particular topic, and then a random sample of 1000 college students in english speaking countries were asked to rank their top 3, and then the points were totaled for each person, then the top 10 people would have "interesting" songs. There! Is that objective enough?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: toosadtobegoth,

What the hell is that? When are we going to get an IQ requisite for these forums.

Okay fine. In the case where you would want to write a song about THREE people, it would be quite difficult to do without referencing gender, unless of course you called everyone by their proper names, and everyone had non-gender specific names like Pat, Jody, or Sam. But I don't really see how that pertains to what I said, or how I'm stupid for saying what I said.

Additionally, you may want to refer yourself to rule #1 in the forum rules. I'm getting pretty sick ( as I'm sure others are) of all the name calling whenever you can't piece together a coherent argument.

Here's your example: Take any song that fits whatever description you want and translate it into Finnish. Finnish doesn't have gendered pronouns - look it up. They only have one - han (with dots over the a) used for both male and female.

quote:

Additionally, you may want to refer yourself to rule #1 in the forum rules. I'm getting pretty sick ( as I'm sure others are) of all the name calling whenever you can't piece together a coherent argument.

I hadn't read that. I apologize.

I guess I like to add insults to things because it makes arguments more emotional, and sometimes that reveals the heart of what is going on. You can make any point if you manipulate language enough... I guess sometimes I think that when you cause a stir, you actually can find something interesting.

So, I was trying to be courteous, insofar as I thought that people understand things better when they get to the heart of the matter. The insults were my way of trying to expose the emotional underlining of things that was giving rise to people seeing one little green tree when if you look at the whole forrest, half of it is on fire and half of it is being chopped down for mcdonalds cows.

:-)

Don't mind me. I'm part Irish, and I have that fighting Irish spirit in me.

I officially apologize. :-P

P.S. I'm prety sure Finland already allows gay marriage. It's probably different there. That's a whole other world. We may as well be talking about Planet GWE&^ifh inside Universe6942.

maaa-aan, that was just goofy. I don't care what your sat was. I just wanted to argue like a civilized person. oh well.

quote:

Originally posted by toosadtobegoth, not posted by ericg75:
And yet, I can't name any album by a straight musicians that makes NO references to the liking the opposite sex.

Though I haven't researched this to it's fullest extent, I'll give you one off the top of my head. Radiohead's Kid A. There's nothing on that album that specifically references heterosexual love. And it's a pretty well respected album to boot.

Also, please don't make up quotes I never said. I'm not sure if that's in the forum rules, but it ought to be.

quote:

Originally posted by vitunkrapula:
maaa-aan, that was just goofy. I don't care what your sat was, I just wanted to argue like a civilized person.

but i'm clearly not civilized! otherwise i wouldn't be some effeminate petite homo screaming in a hard rock band. and clearly i'm not good at pretending to be something i'm not -- so it's hard for me to even feign civility.

(Btw, the SAT comment I made was a joke. I actually never took the SATs. I dropped out of high school to work in a movie theater and lead a simple life devoid of essays and pretentious papers with formalities and an education that basically assimilates you into a good liberal mindset so you can go be a good worker bea. yeah. so i ain't never needed to done gone to college. the wind done gone, and i to go to simpeler plases.

Man, this is a bizarre discussion. I think toosad is essentially correct in saying that gay artists alter their lyrics from what they would naturally write, but like I said in my previous post, I don't see anything particularly wrong in the artist making that choice. It's sad and wrong that our society forces them to make such a choice, but there's nothing particularly shameful about choosing not to sacrifice one's happiness for a social cause.

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:

quote:

Originally posted by toosadtobegoth, not posted by ericg75:
And yet, I can't name any album by a straight musicians that makes NO references to the liking the opposite sex.

Though I haven't researched this to it's fullest extent, I'll give you one off the top of my head. Radiohead's Kid A.

Radiohead's Kid A: that would fit under the "Gertrude Stein exception."

Here's lyrics from Radiohead's Kid A:

The place was shown to be
very like the last time
A piece
was not exchanged,
not a bit of it
a piece was left over
The rest was mismanaged

Here is an exerpt from a poem by Gertrude Stein:

You can keep the furniture
A bump on the head
Howling down the chimney
Release me

Wait... I think I may have maybe mixed the two up. Well, you can see how I was confused. In any case, Kid A fits the exception.

It's not your education I care about. It's just common courtesy and intelligence - which (in my opinion at least) has very little to do with schooling.

Just going through my collection out of curiousity. Here's what I've found so far (not completely but pretty sure about these)

Robert Wyatt - Rock Bottom
Holy Modal Rounders - indian war whoop
modest mouse - lonesome crowded west
halo benders - god don't make no junk
polvo - exploded drawing
wu-tang - 36 chambers
pink floyd - the piper at the gates of dawn
wolf parade - apologies to the queen mary

I don't think anything by the boredoms has anything to do with sex, ditto for most of, if not all deerhoof

Some of those might be gertrude stein I guess. That seems kinda cheap to me though. but not wolf parade, modest mouse or wu-tang. Those are pretty solid.