i think one of the most underrated artists is frank zappa. i think he's seen by most people who've heard of him as being purely about sex comedy and extended guitar pyrotechnics. maybe he's just remembered for his later period stuff which was pretty obsessed with scatological humour, but with a body of work that big there's always going to be less than good stuff (his later career).
some of his earlier albums are incredible. his first 3 are satirical masterpieces, his jazz-fusion period contains some stunning stuff, and a lot of the later forays into slightly more conventional rock are brilliant in terms of compositional and technical skill. he was a classical composer at heart, with a wry sense of humour and oodles of technical skill. probably my favourite guitarist as well.
i seriously think a lot of his earlier stuff was unprecedented and unsurpassed on many levels. if he'd wanted to, he could have been as popular as anyone, but he was more interested in the subversion and perversion of pop music.
Originally posted by DrAwesome: Leonard Cohen (the second greatest songwriter of all time next to Dylan)
I half agree with you. Although I am not a huge fan of Cohen's, I do feel that he his underrated. He has writen some great songs but he is hardly ever mentioned anywhere. At least as far I can remember.
And the second part, I would put him in the top ten number of top, top songwriters. But I agree with you that Dylan is number one and put Tom Waits (with Kathleen Brennan), Bruce Springsteen, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Neil Young, Stevie Wonder, Mick Jagger and Keith Richards, and Brian Wilson ahead of Cohen. But hey, if you like him that much then more power to you.
I read something from A.C. Newman of the New Pornographers (who's Canadian in case you don't know) saying he'd put the top three Canadian songwriters of Neil Young, Leonard Cohen and Joni Mitchell up against any three American songwriters. His quote was something like "I'm sure you're thinking Bob Dylan and Brian Wilson, but who else?"
I'm sure there's plenty of answers to trump Joni Mitchell including Bruce Springsteen, Lou Reed, Tom Petty, John Fogarty, etc. But still the gist of the deal was about Leonard Cohen being underrated.
Originally posted by Hophead: I'm sure there's plenty of answers to trump Joni Mitchell including Bruce Springsteen, Lou Reed, Tom Petty, John Fogarty, etc.
Originally posted by Hophead: I'm sure there's plenty of answers to trump Joni Mitchell including Bruce Springsteen, Lou Reed, Tom Petty, John Fogarty, etc.
Er, no, actually.
Er, yes, actually. Add Jeff Tweedy, Johnny Cash, Lindsey Buckingham, Stevie Wonder, Willie Nelson, Kurt Cobain, Stephen Malkmus, Paul Simon, Prince, and Paul Westerburg to my earlier list.
Originally posted by Hophead: I'm sure there's plenty of answers to trump Joni Mitchell including Bruce Springsteen, Lou Reed, Tom Petty, John Fogarty, etc.
Er, no, actually.
Er, yes, actually. Add Jeff Tweedy, Johnny Cash, Lindsey Buckingham, Stevie Wonder, Willie Nelson, Kurt Cobain, Stephen Malkmus, Paul Simon, Prince, and Paul Westerburg to my earlier list.
It's still no, actually, but you get points for tenacity
I am not sure if Bobby is arguing this because he is a big fan of Joni Mitchell or because he doesn't like the songwriters chosen to "trump" her. Either way, Hophead, I wouldn't definitely say that Joni Mitchell doesn't deserve her right as a top songwriter. There are plenty of Mitchell backers here so it is kind of touchy. I wont say that all of those artists you cited would "trump" her--much like the Cowboys did to the Bills in Super Bowl XXVII--but some I would rank above her. I would put Stevie Wonder, Sprigsteen and a few others, of course I would add Tom Waits and Kathleen Brennan to this mix.
I guess sometimes these things are touchy when you say that "all of these people are way better than this one person"--someone might take offense to that.
Originally posted by FragileKidA: I guess sometimes these things are touchy when you say that "all of these people are way better than this one person"--someone might take offense to that.
I didn't think anyone was getting touchy. Just typical message board B.S. Anyways to set the record straight, I certainly respect Joni Mitchell and her name being mentioned in the same breath with anyone else I mentioned should shock no one. She's just not my cup of tea. I can't stand James Taylor either. I'll take Neil Young's version of early 70's singer-songwriter crooning over the sap Joni Mitchell and James Taylor recorded anyday.
FKA, I wasn't touchy about the banter, nor have I got a problem with Hophead's selections, most of whose work I enjoy. It's all good, clean fun and we've all got our faves.
However, I believe that, lyrically, Mitchell has got it all over any of those guys mentioned. IMO, after Dylan she's got the best way with words of any songwriter I've heard (and I've heard all of the aforementioned except for Paul Westerburg - what's his claim to fame?). And I'll put her five consecutive albums (Blue, For The Roses, Court and Spark, The Hissing of Summer Lawns and Hejira) up against anybody's.
Hop, for what it's worth, my wife can't stand Joni Mitchell
ALL musicians who use the media to sell their wares are going to be overrated in some way or another.
CDs are just the same as washing powder, mobile phones and any other home commodity. SOMEBODY WANTS YOU TO BUY THEM.
We hear stories of how this band are 'massively influential' or 'the next big thing'. It's all PR and advertising. The band that has the best marketing strategy wins. As with war, history is written by the victor.
Nirvana had Geffen behind them. Listen to Mudhoney or the Melvins and tell me they're not just as good. The media have convinced us that Nirvana were the BEST.
When a band has a big label behind it, they can afford BIG advertising - sometimes it can be as much as £20,000 for a full page in a popular music publication. When journalists from 'certain publications' are handed the album to review, they can't say anything bad because the band is generating income for their magazine. So they say it's 'WOW! AMAZING! INCREDIBLE!'. And all too often we believe them.
The artists I would consider underrated are the musicians I've seen slumming around in toilet style venues for years - many of them are better than the these famous people, but they never catch on with the suits. They don't even get a record deal. That's as underrated as it gets.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Duncan Black,
In answer to Sideshow Bob's question about Paul Westerberg- he was the songwriter and frontman for arguably the greatest US rock band of the 80's, the Replacements. Now, there's a guy who is definitely rated lowly by the general public, who surely deserves to be better known, if only for being a key influence on Cobain.
Oh, could I feel as I have felt, or be what I have been, Or weep as I could once have wept, o'er many a vanished scene; As springs in deserts found seem sweet, all brackish though they be, So, midst the withered waste of life, those tears would flow to me.
Originally posted by Ishmaelscoffin: In answer to Sideshow Bob's question about Paul Westerberg- he was the songwriter and frontman for arguably the greatest US rock band of the 80's, the Replacements. Now, there's a guy who is definitely rated lowly by the general public, who surely deserves to be better known, if only for being a key influence on Cobain.
There's probably no way this is not going to sound bitchy and pedantic, but I don't think anybody should be known only for his or her influence on somebody else. That totally undermines the whole reason to listen.
quote:
Nirvana had Geffen behind them. Listen to Mudhoney or the Melvins and tell me they're not just as good. The media have convinced us that Nirvana were the BEST.
I bought My Brother the Cow once upon a time and never really got into it, but I get what you're saying. Also, Kurt Cobain realized what was going on with Geffen and did his best to take advantage of his situation - for example he got the Raincoats reissued as well as some other stuff I can't remember at the moment. He also tried to get Os Mutantes to reunite, stuff like that.
quote:
The artists I would consider underrated are the musicians I've seen slumming around in toilet style venues for years - many of them are better than the these famous people, but they never catch on with the suits. They don't even get a record deal. That's as underrated as it gets.
That is a good point. Probably the most underrated musicians will never be heard of by the likes of us. Similarly no one will ever be able to read all of the good books ever written. that's just how it goes - it's still fun to try!
To vitunkrapula, to have one artist recognised as an influence on another is to at least begin to bring their name to the general public's attention. That actually is a service to listening, because the curious will then seek that performer out, and partly the point of this thread. You miss my point if you think music fans and historians will stop at merely recognising an artist who has been somewhat neglected, as if they were "only" a name in a text. No musician who has recordings available will ever be known only as an influence without critical analysis to follow.
Oh, could I feel as I have felt, or be what I have been, Or weep as I could once have wept, o'er many a vanished scene; As springs in deserts found seem sweet, all brackish though they be, So, midst the withered waste of life, those tears would flow to me.
I agree, think Nick Drake. He's become such a common name, but back in his day he was almost unheard of. But once he got a bunch of artists listing him as an influence, people started to catch on... and he was definately and excellent musician and song-writer; he deserves the recognition he's coming by now posthumously.
Nirvana had Geffen behind them. Listen to Mudhoney or the Melvins and tell me they're not just as good. The media have convinced us that Nirvana were the BEST.
quote:
I bought My Brother the Cow once upon a time and never really got into it, but I get what you're saying. Also, Kurt Cobain realized what was going on with Geffen and did his best to take advantage of his situation - for example he got the Raincoats reissued as well as some other stuff I can't remember at the moment. He also tried to get Os Mutantes to reunite, stuff like that.
quote:
The artists I would consider underrated are the musicians I've seen slumming around in toilet style venues for years - many of them are better than the these famous people, but they never catch on with the suits. They don't even get a record deal. That's as underrated as it gets.
quote:
That is a good point. Probably the most underrated musicians will never be heard of by the likes of us. Similarly no one will ever be able to read all of the good books ever written. that's just how it goes - it's still fun to try!
Thanks to vitunkrapula for replying. This forum is very difficult for finding 'written conversation', but I like reading a lot of the opinions.
I'm glad you liked my argument.
Somewhere out there is a frustrated musician. He's sat in a horrible piss stained club playing the greatest music in the entire history of the universe. He doesn't have any business sense and he lives in a really remote area. The A&R men are in another country and he's 3,000 times better than anything on TV or radio.
You miss my point if you think music fans and historians will stop at merely recognising an artist who has been somewhat neglected, as if they were "only" a name in a text. No musician who has recordings available will ever be known only as an influence without critical analysis to follow.
I'm not disavowing the possibility of critical analysis. I just think that listening to the replacements as an influence on nirvana is not really listening to the replacements.
quote:
Somewhere out there is a frustrated musician. He's sat in a horrible piss stained club playing the greatest music in the entire history of the universe. He doesn't have any business sense and he lives in a really remote area. The A&R men are in another country and he's 3,000 times better than anything on TV or radio.
I'm not sure if I would go THAT far. That scenario is certainly possible, but I'm not sure it's really happening. A lot of the lesser known bands I have come in contact with are unknown for good reason.
I'm not sure if I would go THAT far. That scenario is certainly possible, but I'm not sure it's really happening. A lot of the lesser known bands I have come in contact with are unknown for good reason.
It sounds implausible, but I've seen it happen in very cut off areas where there's no people or media interest. Some of these acts get as far as being 'local heroes', but they never have the cash to take it any further.
In the present climate, the majority of big-time artists have some sort of connection with the industry suits before they start - It's all about who you know. I could list examples.
Those who don't have contacts, or finances to promote themselves rarely succeed on quality of music alone. It's a bit of a shame because they usually split up. As you say - That's just how it is.
