Originally posted by FragileKidA: God plays a huge role in my life and believe it or not, in everyone’s life.
If you are a Christian and believe the Bible, you believe that God has a hand in everything and in everyone's lives, regardless of whether that person believes in God. I give FragileKidA credit for expressing his beliefs honestly, though it could have been done more tactfully. I, personally, don't have that same level of confidence in my own beliefs. I believe the truth is out there but I can't say with 100% certainty what it is since I wasn't there to see how the universe was formed. I also can't understand the people who are set in their belief that there is no God. One thing's for certain though, everyone has an opinion.
Organized religion might be a bad thing taking into account untoward historical events brought about by organized religions...but I don't think spirtuality per se is a bad thing. I believe for some people a sense of being connected with "otherness" is not something wrong or negative, and even gives them a healthy sense of well-being.
I don't know... I try to avoid debates when it involves the existence or absence of God. It's much worse than discussing politics. It tends to violate people's sensibilites more than any other issue. From my point of view, for those people who believe in God out of sheer faith it's quite unsettling for them to realize that there are other people who do not.
I, personally, don't have that same level of confidence in my own beliefs. I believe the truth is out there but I can't say with 100% certainty what it is since I wasn't there to see how the universe was formed.
Thank you for saying this, SDF. This is the main reason for tolerance. I think that if, for instance, Christians were 100% sure about what they believe that they would be justified in being intolerant and forcing their beliefs on others. If people were 100% sure that they were saving souls and preventing eternal torture in hell by burning thousands of witches in medieval Europe, then their actions would've been justified, in my opinion. But they had no reason to believe this other than the fact that the Bible says "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
quote:
Organized religion might be a bad thing taking into account untoward historical events brought about by organized religions...but I don't think spirtuality per se is a bad thing. I believe for some people a sense of being connected with "otherness" is not something wrong or negative, and even gives them a healthy sense of well-being.
I think that if, for instance, Christians were 100% sure about what they believe that they would be justified in being intolerant and forcing their beliefs on others.
Let's be careful with our word choice. You mean "Christian zealots," not "Christians." There are plenty of practicing Christians who don't feel compelled to force their beliefs on you. This notion that religous-minded people only exist to berate and harass is nonsense. (A sizable contingent of liberals attend church, by the way.)
Now that Kid A has clarified his views, I don't have a problem with them.
His initial post seemed like he was trying to chastise RL for being areligious, but now I know that he wasn't.
I perfectly respect the belief that God is in control of everything about everyone's lives. Just, if you're talking to people you know don't share that view, it's going to rub them the wrong way if you correct them using your views as undebateable fact.
To refocus on music, what are some bands/artists that you feel successfully or unsuccessfully get across their political or religious views? By successfully, I don't mean that you are converted to their viewpoints, but rather, you can sympathize?
I'll readily admit that I don't hold my view that religion is an overall negative force in society with any certainty. I don't see how anyone could have an opinion in that matter with any kind of certainty. It just seems to me that of the evidence that I'm aware of religion does more harm than good. That said, I don't think that your statement is a valid argument, Dubs. For a lor of people, alcohol and tobacco are a valuable part of their lives, but I don't think they are a force for good. Similarly, religion has always been very popular, but I think it would be impossible to argue that it has always been a force for good considering all the wars, witchhunts, human sacrifices, intolerance, and other cruel practices that organized religion was involved in.
I realize I'm a couple hours late with this, but...
You forgot to mention terrorism. Yes, religion has been responsible for some terrible acts that typically run counter to the zealots' own beliefs. But if religion is properly restrained, such that witchhunts and the like don't happen, then religion does serve a valuable purpose to probably billions of people. Yes, religious issues are frequently divisive and the resulting problems can be severe, but most developed countries have solved this problem by divorcing religion and government and subjecting everyone to rules that should have been obvious, such as, "Don't kill."
As for the relevance of this discussion to music, I would argue that it is relevant if we, as reasoned, disinterested observers, are to debate the relationship between music and religion. Unfortunately, arguing about religion is even more tedious than arguing over whether Modest Mouse is underrated or overrated. I just wanted to sneak in a rebuttal.
Originally posted by SDF: To refocus on music, what are some bands/artists that you feel successfully or unsuccessfully get across their political or religious views? By successfully, I don't mean that you are converted to their viewpoints, but rather, you can sympathize?
I don't really like her music, but my friend used to listen to Nelly Mckay a lot, and I really liked her politics. Very feminist, but in a tongue in cheek sort of way, and she dioesn't shove it down your throat. For the best example, see "I wanna get married."
I haven't read all the preceding posts, but I didn't say I am uncomfortable with an artist pushing a particular religious perspective. I said I was not comfortable putting money into the hands of a Christian music label. These are two different things.
I may post more extensively on this later, but I don't have time now.
I think that if, for instance, Christians were 100% sure about what they believe that they would be justified in being intolerant and forcing their beliefs on others.
Let's be careful with our word choice. You mean "Christian zealots," not "Christians." There are plenty of practicing Christians who don't feel compelled to force their beliefs on you. This notion that religous-minded people only exist to berate and harass is nonsense. (A sizable contingent of liberals attend church, by the way.)
Yeah, I didn't mean what you thought I did by that, Leland. I meant that it would be justifiable to do that sort of thing, not that all Christians actually do. It was kind of an ambiguous statement. Sorry if anyone misunderstood.
I'm only quick to point out the distinction because I was raised by non-practicing Baptists, both of whom are socially liberal and completely tolerant of other cultures and lifestyles (including their agnostic son).
Originally posted by SDF: To refocus on music, what are some bands/artists that you feel successfully or unsuccessfully get across their political or religious views? By successfully, I don't mean that you are converted to their viewpoints, but rather, you can sympathize?
Neil Young gets them across very successfully.
And yes. There are Christians, and there are 'CHRISTIANS'. There are the tolerant, pleasant, real Christians, and there are the hostile, hateful, Pat Robertson Christians. The former are about a hundred times more populous than the latter.
Posted 17 January 2006 10:04 PM To refocus on music, what are some bands/artists that you feel successfully or unsuccessfully get across their political or religious views? By successfully, I don't mean that you are converted to their viewpoints, but rather, you can sympathize?
Propaghandi, Dead Prez and Jello Biafra immediately come to mind.
"If it were beneficial, their father would produce children already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become profitable in every respect." -Jesus, from the Gospel Of Thomas
Originally posted by m.leland: A sizable contingent of liberals attend church, by the way.
Like myself, except I believe I am a Democrat, not a liberal. In my eyes, a Liberal is a complete, left-wing radical. Just like there is a clear difference from Conservatives who are in turn pure right-wing radicals and Republicans who can be somewhat liberal.
To close this off and re-focus on the music, I didn't mean to offend anyone and although maybe my comments didn't make much sense to some people like SDF and RavingLunatic I hope some people understand my point of view. I feel strongly about this but I am in no way imposing that everyone here be a Christian. Although I do wish you all were—because I do feel like everyone should have a love for Christ because he died for our salvation. And although I encourage it, I don’t impose it.
I think I understand you better now, FragileKidA. I just don't think you made yourself really clear in your earlier posts. That's the problem with forums like this. It's easy to misunderstand exactly what a person was trying to say.
I had never heard of 16 Horsepower before, so I looked them up on allmusic. I noticed their guitarist is Steve Taylor. He was a very controversial solo artist in the 80s within the Christian genre. His songs were very satirical, often poking fun at fellow Christians and their ideologies. Some of his better known songs are "This Disco Used to be a Cute Cathedral," "I Want to be a Clone," and "I Blew Up the Clinic Real Good." He also founded the record label, Squint Entertainment, which I believe is defunct. Perhaps this will shed some light on where 16 Horsepower is coming from.
To me 'liberal' means the classic definition of liberal. Which means you believe in very few social *or* economic regulations. But nobody else uses it that way..
There are some kinds of bands that are really bad at getting their point across. Either they're overly crude and aggressive, or they're too angsty and whiny, or they're just plain idealogic.
