This topic came up in another thread, and I figure it deserves a thread of its own. Peewee said he doesn't feel comfortable handing over his money to an artist that pushes some religious viewpoint. I can understand that, and I even agree with it somewhat. I don't think religion is a healthy thing for society. I don't avoid buying Sufjan CD's though, and I bought Seven Swans, his most religious album.

Still, I believe that artists should write about what they feel strongly about, and if religion is what they feel strongly about, then that's probably what they should be writing about. If it's really preachy stuff, though, I won't buy it or waste my time on it. One example of that would be 16 Horsepower (or Woven Hand). I have a live recording of the guy, and it sounds pretty good, but I don't go for the kind of you're-going-to-hell lyrics that guy writes, so I don't bother.

I think if an artist pushes a viewpoint that you disagree with, of course you're going to avoid their music, whether it's religious or political, or racist, homophobic, or misogynistic.

As for the religion thing, that's a common theme in a great deal of music. As long as it's not being preachy, which I don't think Sufjan Stevens is, I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

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One example of that would be 16 Horsepower (or Woven Hand). I have a live recording of the guy, and it sounds pretty good, but I don't go for the kind of you're-going-to-hell lyrics that guy writes, so I don't bother.

Where does 16 Horsepower get "preachy"? I can't deny the lyrics Edwards writes are rich with religious symbolism, but I can't recall a time when I thought he was talking down to me. In fact, all he does is talk about himself.

Hmm..I don't know. I do think in most cases it's possible to separate the artist's viewpoint from the aesthetic quality of the music.

Take John Lennon. How many people love Imagine but disagree with it completely? Or the Rolling Stones. 'Under My Thumb' is extremely misogynistic....but it's a great song.

Artists should write what they feel strongly about, and express themselves. If you don't let yourself enjoy music whose message you disagree with, you limit yourself to only the music that carries the exact message you agree with.

That being said, a lot of Christian recordings seem to have the message "I'm saved, and you're not, therefore I'm better than you because you don't agree with my viewpoint." Or, worse, they act like Christians are a persecuted minority in America, when in fact they're the majority in power at the moment. I have no problem with Christian music, so long as it doesn't have any of that obnoxious, condescending, self righteous crap. But if it does..I just won't listen to it.

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Originally posted by m.leland:

Where does 16 Horsepower get "preachy"? I can't deny the lyrics Edwards writes are rich with religious symbolism, but I can't recall a time when I thought he was talking down to me. In fact, all he does is talk about himself.

I've never actually read the guy's lyrics. I was just going by everything I've ever read about him in reviews and interviews. It sounds like he's one of those hardcore fier-and-brimstone kind of guys. That's why I've never bothered listening to any of his stuff. Maybe I got the wrong impression though.

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Originally posted by Bobthespirit:
'Under My Thumb' is extremely misogynistic....but it's a great song.

This is a little off-topic, but I read something about the story behind Mick Jagger writing this song. It was about this girl he was seeing just before the Stones made it big, and I guess she was very controlling and took advantage of him. However, after the band made it big, she totally changed her tune and basically worshipped him. So, I don't think Mick is necessarily misogynistic, as the song isn't about women in general, it's really about a specific situation.

I agree with leland about 16 Horsepower. The intense lyrics go hand-in-hand with the intense music, but there's no "preaching" going on, just scary stuff. It's kinda like Roky Erickson. I don't think he believes in the "Fire Demon" or the "Creature With the Atom Brain", but I probably wouldn't tell him to his face because he's a scary mutha.

I agree with Bob and RLunatic (as I check outside to see if hell has frozen over). All that matters is if an artist is passionate about his music...I don't have to agree with the viewpoint that he is plugging. However, the most passionate people out there are probably the Christian rock bands, but I never listen to them. That is probably because they put their message before their music, which is really the death knell.

We agree all the time about music, Pax.

As far as politics in music goes, I think Toby Keith is a scary mutha, too.

I was listening to a Christian folk/psych album this afternoon. An early 70's band called Window, who's self-titled debut was just reissued by Radioactive Records. The songs run deep in that time's naive, hippee communal/religious tone. Sweet and unoffensive, now highly dated. Were those songs- Day By Day et al - labeled "Christian" back then? I can't recall.

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Originally posted by RavingLunatic:
I don't think religion is a healthy thing for society.

Ok this is where I have to disagree with everyone here. To say that religion is not healthy for a society is entirely absurd and flat-out stupid. To many people this may sound preachy or self-righteous, like someone earlier had said, but without God there would be no music. So people that say that they won’t contribute to the sales of Christian-themed music, solely because they don’t want to, are wrong.
I can understand if you just don’t like the music, but if you like the music and you don’t want it because they are explaining their own love for God or you don’t want it simply because you can’t stand that then you need to reevaluate your religious beliefs—if you have any. And I know everyone loves to mention how Sufjan Stevens isn’t too preachy and everything but he will flat-out tell you that he is all Christian and proud of it. It sounds to me like a lot of the people on this thread simply feel that there should be no religion in music or a “separation between church and music”; well that is just stupid. God gave us music so there is no reason why there should be a separation from Him, because without God, there wouldn’t be any music.

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Originally posted by RavingLunatic:
I don't think religion is a healthy thing for society.

Like the Fragile Kid, I disagree heartily with this notion, though for different reasons. It's pretty easy these days to see how religion and in particular religiosity can go very wrong and cause a lot of problems, but I think that in general religion serves to unify groups of people and is mostly a positive thing. I'm not really a social Darwinist but I think that if religion were generally bad for societies, then it wouldn't exist or would exist in a much more limited capacity. Religion is too valuable to too many people to be a bad thing. I'm an atheist by the way.

That was tangential, sorry.

Personally, I don't love it when music is about God. Sufjan's good, but I find his religious themes irritating, even if he isn't really 'pushing' anything. I think you could say that no listener is always going to agree with the lyrics of the bands that he likes. But if I were pro-war, I think I'd be able to look past anti-war messages (you'd have to in order to like anything at all). Religion, though, is unlike any other difference in opinion, and people are always going to be more sensitive about it.

Also, I think Creed made us all associate "Christian rock" with "self-important, indulgent, unlistenable crap."

Hmm...Fragile, question. I think that religion, in general, has had a positive impact on a lot of people's lives. But, I don't personally believe in any religion (Unless you count science or humanism).

My question would be...do you think I'm an idiot in serious need of a reevaluation of my personal beliefs, or do you respect my right to disagree with you?

You say 'Without God there would be no music'. I respect that you believe that to be true, but I think you need to acknowledge the validity of the opinions of those who don't agree.

A lot of christians seem to feel somehow persecuted by secular society. But, they need to realize that the only thing secular people are intolerant to them about is *their* intolerance for dissent.

And...that's the issue I think RL and others have with christian music. The attitude that disagreeing with them is equal to ignorance.

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Originally posted by crazed:
As far as politics in music goes, I think Toby Keith is a scary mutha, too.

I was listening to a Christian folk/psych album this afternoon. An early 70's band called Window, who's self-titled debut was just reissued by Radioactive Records. The songs run deep in that time's naive, hippee communal/religious tone. Sweet and unoffensive, now highly dated. Were those songs- Day By Day et al - labeled "Christian" back then? I can't recall.

Well, "Day By Day" is from the musical Godspell about Jesus' life transposed to 1970s NYC. Does that make it "Christian"? The subject matter certainly is.

Is "I Don't Know How to Love Him" from Jesus Christ Superstar a Christian song if heard out of context on the radio?

I'd like to add that "preachiness" is not exclusive to Christian music. Many artists push political causes or anti-religious ideas in their lyrics as well. They may assume that the bulk of their fans agree with them, but I'm sure not all do.

However, most people (myself included) will still listen as long as they don't cross the line. I doubt anyone hear would support an artist who promotes rape or racism or anything else that is beyond offensive regardless of the musical quality.

I see it much like balancing the scales. If you don't like the music enough to overcome any disagreements you may have, then you won't want to listen to it. If you really, really like the music, you may cut it a little more slack.

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God gave us music so there is no reason why there should be a separation from Him, because without God, there wouldn’t be any music.

You do realize that not everyone believes that "God gave us music" or even that there is a god at all. I couold just as easily say that you need to reevaluate your religious views (except I never would). Like Bob said, we've got to respect each other's religious beliefs.

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Religion is too valuable to too many people to be a bad thing.

I'll readily admit that I don't hold my view that religion is an overall negative force in society with any certainty. I don't see how anyone could have an opinion in that matter with any kind of certainty. It just seems to me that of the evidence that I'm aware of religion does more harm than good. That said, I don't think that your statement is a valid argument, Dubs. For a lor of people, alcohol and tobacco are a valuable part of their lives, but I don't think they are a force for good. Similarly, religion has always been very popular, but I think it would be impossible to argue that it has always been a force for good considering all the wars, witchhunts, human sacrifices, intolerance, and other cruel practices that organized religion was involved in.

As far as musical enjoyment goes, I would say that political or religious lyrics that I ardently disagree with are similar to really corny lyrics. They both make me cringe and reduce my enjoyment of the music. The only difference really is that I wouldn't buy an album that pushed political or religious causes that I really think do harm. For instance, I would never buy a Toby Keith album, even if I thought his music was the best around. If an album had really amazing music, but corny lyrics, on the other hand, I would still buy it. It's like SDF said, if the music is really great, it's easier to overlook bad lyrics.

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My question would be...do you think I'm an idiot in serious need of a reevaluation of my personal beliefs, or do you respect my right to disagree with you?

Of course I don’t think you are an idiot. That is one of the many freedoms we can call our own, where we are free to believe whatever we want, even if some may not agree with it.

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You do realize that not everyone believes that "God gave us music" or even that there is a god at all.

When it comes to that, God created everything—everything. There is nothing in that meaning that everything doesn’t cover. And it says it in The Bible, it is the truth, it is the word, it is the way. So in my eyes, when someone says that not everyone believes that, all I can really say is to look into some kind of religious deity because without God in your life you can never be fully happy.

I don’t say this to anger anyone, but just like everyone has their own opinion, I have my own. And on this subject, it hits close to home because God plays a huge role in my life and believe it or not, in everyone’s life.

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And it says it in The Bible, it is the truth, it is the word, it is the way.

This is the kind of dogmatic and, frankly, intolerant statements that, if I saw it on a lyric sheet, would lead me to not buy an album. It also seems incompatible with some of the other statements you made, like these:

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That is one of the many freedoms we can call our own, where we are free to believe whatever we want, even if some may not agree with it.

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when someone says that not everyone believes that, all I can really say is to look into some kind of religious deity because without God in your life you can never be fully happy

If the Bible is "the truth, the word, and the way" then I presume that you would disapprove all other religions, which billions of people follow and believe every bit as strongly as you do, yet you seem to encourage the belief in some god, regardless of whether it is true or not.

And it may not seem like it to you, but many atheists have lived full and happy lives without a god being a part of them.

I think music gets wayyyyy more interesting when the artist is representing an opinion or perspective different from your own. We all think we have the best perspectives anyway, and sit around all day telling ourselves this no matter how "open-minded" we claim to be. So, on that note, wouldn't it be kind of refreshing to hear an artist passionately convey a rationale completely different from your own.

The only way I would think this would bother someone is if they felt threatened by the message the artist conveys. And in that case the listener needs to develop a thicker skin and have more confidence in their own convictions.

Oh, and guys, please stop debating about God. I like music.