Yeah, that's utterly silly. Of course rap is music.

I believe rap is music. Drums circles also. Marching band drum songs too.

I'd say, if rap wasn't music, what would they call it?

Anyway, about the lyrics vs music debate... Most indie bands stress the music, and hardly the lyrics. In fact, the vocals are usually at the same level as the guitars or even quieter.

I prefer the joyous indie sound, but most of the songs are 1/3 complete, IMO. More effort needs to be put into the song structure & lyrics.

I mean, they got the atmosphere and instrumentation down, but many of the songs I'm hearing don't have an introduction and perhaps an ending. Even middle parts can be added via bridges, variation, deletions. I can't tolerate songs that begin suddenly, continues with the same noise for 4 minutes, and fades in the end. It's laziness.

But, for me, I've evolved into a lyrics type a guy and that's probably why I'm a little frustrated with this genre. Some of these bands will come up with really great ideas but the lyrics would suck. Much like the average music listener, I love hearing a story or a powerful message. The last song that brought me to tears was a country song. A musician can sure learn a lot from them songwriters down in Nashville.

I would love it if indie musicians would all take a year off from playing, read “tunesmith” by jimmy webb, and approach music again with that new information.

I haven't read all the posts so I apologize if this has been said. First of all, the music is more important to me than the lyrics, I can enjoy a song with good music but bad lyrics, but not vice versa.

What I really wanted to say though is what is even more important to me than the lyrics is how the singer sings them. If a singer really is into what he is singing that's more important to me than what the actual words are. For instance, a singer could be singing about his favorite curling team (something I could care less about), but if he is singing with intensity and obviously cares about the subject, that's what matters to me.

I'm rambling again, but in closing the music means more to me than the lyrics and the way a person sings the lyrics are also more important to me than the lyrics themselves (if that makes any sense).

I said before that music is more important than lyrics, and I guess I want to go back on that a little bit. I think that music is definitely more important than lyrics when first hearing a song. Regardless of how good the lyrics are, if the music doesn't sound good, I'm not going to keep listening to it or come back a 2nd and 3rd time. I connect to music based on whether or not the music is interesting. For a good number of albums I buy, I never get beyond that level of connection, since I listen to a lot of music.

Over time, lyrics become more important, maybe equally important as music, and help define which of the music that's made the "sonic cut" actually become my favorites. Months or years after first hearing something, the meaning of the lyrics will suddenly hit me, and it'll be that much better. Or I'll suddenly realize that the words of this song are really stupid, and it'll lose stature.

So in short: music determines if an album makes my CD rack, lyrics determine if it makes my top 10 list.

i don't know about you guys but i have a really hard time hearing most lyrics.. i don't know if it's related to any sort of learning disability but I typically can't make any sort of sense of what I'm hearing lyric wise. needless to say, i focus on the music.

Many more interesting comments have been added here. I'm starting to see that several people are more interested in the vocals than the words being vocalized. However, I also noticed that there was a brief moment where rap was questioned to be music. With this thought in mind, does anybody enjoy a capella music, with all vocals and no "music"? Obviously, at least to me, the vocals ARE music, especially when done properly, and you don't even have to understand the lyrics (this certainly applies to non a capella songs too). I'm specifically thinking of songs by Ladysmith Black Mambazo, and "Nansi Imali", in particular.

I haven't heard anything you mentioned, Mark, but I will say that I think the human voice is one of the best instruments out there.

And for what it's worth, the two a capella TV on the Radio songs I've heard are two of my favorites (Ambulance, A Method)

quote:

With this thought in mind, does anybody enjoy a capella music, with all vocals and no "music"?

I really enjoy Anne Briggs' A Collection, a fantastic, mostly a capella album of traditional British folk. I haven't heard much a capella but there are plenty artists I'd love to hear/have heard sing unaccompanied for a change. Sometimes the voice is the only instrument needed.

quote:

Obviously, at least to me, the vocals ARE music, especially when done properly, and you don't even have to understand the lyrics (this certainly applies to non a capella songs too). I'm specifically thinking of songs by Ladysmith Black Mambazo, and "Nansi Imali", in particular.

When I can't understand the lyrics, the vocals become an instrument of my own making, depending on how I choose to intrept the shape and tones of the voice. Erg...that doesn't make sense, I know, but when I first heard Selda Bagcan's Turkish psych-folk albums, it made perfect sense to me- I was becoming mesmerized by the greatest set of pipes I'd ever heard with or without understanding a single word.

I can't make a general statement in deciding what's more important to me between music, lyrics and vocals. But I can decide to change my intrepretation/attitude/openness towards what I hear and enjoy it more.

I think some people have different definitions of what the "music" is. I consider the music to be all melodic and rhythmic elements in the song. That includes the vocal melody. The vocal melody and the lyrics are two different things that are linked, yet are independent of one another.

Yes, but unless you're talking about a written transcript of the lyrics, if they are sung they will contain harmonic texture that is certainly not seperate from the music.

What do you mean when you say "harmonic texture?" Do you mean that the way that way the vocal melody is perceived is altered by the sound/meaning of the words? Whoa, this is getting heavy.

Well, there's that. But, I'm referring to the fact that every voice brings it's completely unique (usually) texture and uh wrinkles to the mix, and that stuff is, I believe, elemental.

EDIT : But yeah, based on my choice of wording, your interpretation is spot on. I just didn't quite mean it that way.

EDIT : Which has already been mentioned in this thread, so just forget I said anything.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: goathouse's enlarging prostate,

Bumped for outis.

Lyrics are very important to me. The words are the message of the artist, and the message has to connect with me. It's very rare these days that a band releases and album that truly connect with me. People in this society are too busy connecting with themselves rather than trying to find a creative way to reach others with something insightful.

yeah depends on the genre but id say music overall

Hard to say, because the music and lyrics tend to be inseperable and push each other to greater heights. But if someone put a gun to my head (like the TS does) i'd go for the music. I listen a lot more to intrumental music than to... say... a capella music.

It depends, at least to me. For example, when I listen to 'Highway 61 Revisited', or any Dylan album for that matter, I'm going to pay attention to the lyrics, try and figure out the allusions and metaphors, and pay attention to how Dylan emphasizes certain words. Course, Dylan's melodies are also really good, so sometimes I just listen to the music, take in a few lines and just listen to the vocals. And more often than not, that's just what I do.

Hmmm. My favourite record is In The Aeroplane Over The Sea, and you could argue the music is nothing special, and that the lyrics are at times non-sensical and not especially insightful.

However, I think that's missing the point. Surely the power of music is highly stylized. An album works well in its own sphere: it doesn't necessarily need vocals or lyrics, or even a catchy melody.

In The Aeroplane Over The Sea works well because the lyrics elicit emotional reactions which fit perfectly with the music. It's about cohesion.