quote:

Originally posted by kendocubano:

quote:

Originally posted by Chamberk:
However, if the lyrics are obnoxiously bad (Rilo Kiley's latest, I'm looking at you here, with crushed disappointment in my eyes) then it tends to detract from the song.

Agree. It's what, imo, kept David Bowie from actually ascending into heaven as a god. He has had some of the stupidest lyrics in popular music!

"It's not the side effecs of the cocaine, I'm thinking it must be love!" - Station to Station

The guy has his moments.

Music. Although I definitely prefer music with lyrics-- I'm not fussy about the lyrics being good they just can't be terrible.

You hear that all you songwritter out there. If you can't say anything cool, don't say anything at all.

quote:

Originally posted by hudson:
The music or the lyrics? You can't say both. One must be regarded at least slightly more than the other.

Why can't you say both? I think they're equally important.

As long as I don't understand the words, they caqn be crappy and I will still enjoy the music if it's good. It's harder to disguise crappy music with good words, maybe impossible.

So it might sound like I think the music is "more important," but really if either are bad and I understand that they are bad it's still bad music overall.

I don't really think you can separate the two. Music is the artform (in the medium of sound) and the lyrics are just a component of that. Lyrics aren't essential to the music, they're just a small component of the whole.

A more valid question would be "how important are lyrics", a discussion I think we already had.

Also, be careful not to confuse 'lyricist' with 'songwriter'. A lyricist composes words; a songwriter crafts those words into melodies, and devises song structures.

I read somewhere on these forums once where someone wrote "its not the lyrics, its the delivery." For me, nothing could be more true. Honestly, I love Bob Dylan, but the actual lyrics don't matter that much. Its his delivery that makes it great for me. In a sense the singing is another instrument to the music mix to my ears. Oddly, I prefer songs with lyrics though, so the singing is a very important and almost essential instrument to the mix for my preferences.

Great lyrics can help take music up another level, but they don't matter much to me. I sing along to songs all the time with no idea what the real lyrics are, usually I'm just mumbling what it sounds like for the most part.

This thread is very revelatory, so I applaud it for that. Let me ask you something? When you hum a song, either out loud or in your head, are you humming the music's melody or the lyrics'/vocal's melody? Do you even care about melody? Do you hum all songs based on the same above criteria or does it change, based on what you take from the song or what "kind" of song it is? How often do you embellish the bass/percussion into your humming? Is that different based on the "kind" of song it is? How do you decide/determine if one "kind" of song is different from another "kind"? Hell, I'll hold off on the specific lyric questions because many people don't think lyrics are very important. But I might return later so I can hear some more crickets!

I'm not sure if this really brings anything to the table, but you can be humming the wrong words in your heads for ages without finding out the right ones. I've done this several times, and on a couple occasions I was disappointed by the real words.

And to Hophead - yeah I totally agree about the delivery thing. I may have been a part of the discussion you speak of. Tom Waits and Isaac Brock are other classic examples of people who have very distinctive and charismatic deliveries.

quote:

Originally posted by mark f:
This thread is very revelatory, so I applaud it for that. Let me ask you something? When you hum a song, either out loud or in your head, are you humming the music's melody or the lyrics'/vocal's melody? Do you even care about melody? Do you hum all songs based on the same above criteria or does it change, based on what you take from the song or what "kind" of song it is? How often do you embellish the bass/percussion into your humming? Is that different based on the "kind" of song it is? How do you decide/determine if one "kind" of song is different from another "kind"? Hell, I'll hold off on the specific lyric questions because many people don't think lyrics are very important. But I might return later so I can hear some more crickets!

Sage.

For me it's a song-to-song basis. If I'm listening to Andrew Bird, it's a package (his wordplay is genius, but his arrangements and whistling are also key to making the songs as perfect as they are); if I'm listening to Arctic Monkeys it's about the instumental delivery (like I've said plenty of times- that "stop on the drop of a hat" thing they've mastered is awesome); if it's the Pipettes then it's mainly the lyrics.

But, these are all coupled with a great opposite: the Arctic Monkeys have a great vocal delivery and catchy lyrics that feed off of the music and the Pipettes have really fun bubblegum pop backing that push the lyrics forward. "Hissing Fauna.." has incredibly intricate and dark lyrics coupled with intricate and generally upbeat music.

So, I lied, it's not a song-to-song basis. I need strong music while lyrics are optional, but if they're their, you better think of a way to make them good. The music needs to compliment the lyrics or vice-versa.

You don't hum words. At least from songs.

Now, if you're a Buddhist, I might cut you a little slack on that, but a chant isn't just a hum.

quote:

Originally posted by mark f:
You don't hum words. At least from songs.

Now, if you're a Buddhist, I might cut you a little slack on that, but a chant isn't just a hum.

Damn, I thought I was going to be able to rebut this... but I realized there's no way I can.

Darn you.

I'm definitely music over lyrics.

quote:

"its not the lyrics, its the delivery."

I know this is in the Indie Rock forum, but I think hip-hop is especially relevant here - a genre where songs are made out of practically nothing BUT lyrics. I still think that it's a sonically interesting beat and the rhythm of the delivery that makes a great hip-hop song, and not necessarily the content of the lyrics. Of course, the best have both.

^^^ To each his own, but in my opinion rap/hiphop cannot be considered music. It has rythm, but nobody is playing anything. People can listen to whatever they want, but for the love of god don't call it music. Its closer to poetry. Or Shi**y poetry.

quote:

Originally posted by harrisonOWNSmccartney:
^^^ To each his own, but in my opinion rap/hiphop cannot be considered music. It has rythm, but nobody is playing anything. People can listen to whatever they want, but for the love of god don't call it music. Its closer to poetry. Or Shi**y poetry.

Turn off your MTV. You don't have a clue.

hudson, turn off your intellect. You don't have to be that rude

You'd think MTV would indoctrinate a viewpoint favoring rap as the music of choice at the moment, but I thought they'd moved into the reality TV arena lately anyway. Who knows? I believe lyrics and music are inextricably tied as one in most cases, but it's truely situational. This question needs to be answered on a song-by-song (fingerprint, snowflake, etc.) basis, if you ask me.

quote:

Originally posted by hudson:

quote:

Originally posted by harrisonOWNSmccartney:
^^^ To each his own, but in my opinion rap/hiphop cannot be considered music. It has rythm, but nobody is playing anything. People can listen to whatever they want, but for the love of god don't call it music. Its closer to poetry. Or Shi**y poetry.

Turn off your MTV. You don't have a clue.

The way I understand it, rap technically isn't music. It's only musical in a philosophical/artistic kind of way. But the way it's made and composed keep it from being "music" in a classic traditionalist kind of way. But I'm going off what my music teacher told me years ago, and dictionary.com kinda so whatever that's worth to you

Don't think I could ever call it inherently shitty though.

If you had asked me 2 years ago, I would have replied a resounding "lyrics". I hated songs that didn't make some sort of lyrical sense. Recently, though, I have been listening to a lot of instrumental albums (eg Battles, Future Kings of England, God is an Astronaut, &c). So, I say music.

Definitely music. I like instrumentals and I can listen to bands that don't sing in English, because it doesn't matter to me what they're saying as much as how they're saying it. I don't know the lyrics to 90% of the songs I listen to, and can still enjoy them.

And to whoever said rap isn't music: you are not listening to the right rap. While I am no huge rap fan, listen to some Madvillain or some J Dilla and tell me it isn't music.