And don't tell me I don't get it. I enjoy arty music as much as the next guy. But artiness is all Sonic Youth has. They just throw a bunch of noise together with some pseudo-meaningful lyrics in a sad effort to try to sound smart. I can't tell you how angry I was after buying Daydream Nation because of "Teen Age Riot" and about 50 million glowing reviews, only to discover it was garbage.

meepmeep

I don't have much to say except that I agree totally. And the noise they do have isn't even that good! Maybe its just dated now, but they don't do anything for me. And the worst part is that now every band that plays pop songs and is even remotely discordant are "heavily influenced by Sonic Youth."

Murray Street, Confusion is Sex, Goo, and Dirty are great. Everything else is overrated. Daydream nation is totally boring. Kim Gordon can't sing and is an awful bitch.

Also, the thing about everyone comparing everything to Sonic Youth is very true.

Still, having four great albums, even if that's out of twenty albums total, is good.

Hell, no, I won't tell you that you don't get it. I just think, that to quote a great Bogie movie, "As Time Goes By", some things might actually mean more to you than they do now. Your opinions are honest and accurate, but just don't let them all turn into stone, because if your opinions all turn into stone, it's only a matter of time before YOU DO TOO!

I, too, would put them on a most overrated list, but I always chalked it up to just not "getting it"...the arty noise just ain't my scene.

That being said, I like a good chunk of Goo, a fair amount from Dirty, and more than a little from Daydream Nation. "Teenage Riot" is a really good song.

I just never thought they deserved the accolades that they got, but I also figured those who bestowed those accolades were capable of hearing something that just eluded me. I'm glad others find them as overrated as I do.

When Sonic Youth first started releasing albums, they truely possessed a one-of-a-kind sound. In fact, there wasn't even. If that is no longer the case, then I suppose that would speak to SY's influence on music, right? Furthermore, Sonic Youth, as much as anybody in the business, seems to be making music on their own terms. They don't even seem to care what the record buying public wants. That is ballsy astistry.

Sonic Youth's music doesn't sound like noise, it is noise. I liken them to Aphex Twin - it's music that isn't immedaitly accesable so many people are turned off to it without ever considering why someone would like it.

To say it's not good music, or is overrated, is an easy claim to make, especially if the claim is going to be made without any evidence.

I think that many people don't like Sonic Youth because they are offended by it. Not offended in the way that people get offended by Eminem, but offended in the sense that it doesn't fit into a predetermined definition of what that individual previously thought was good music. This can be (and has) be said for Sonic Youth, or Aphex Twin, or Bitch's Brew, or the Books, or any number of other bands that are lazily coined as "artsy". Since the person who doesn't like Sonic Youth keeps hearing other, pressumadly smarter people say how great SY is, the person becomes offended by the notion that they don't know why Sonic Youth might actually be a good band. That person will then start to make the connection that if SY really is a great band, and they can't understand why, then they must somehow be stupid. As a result, that person will start making outrageous claims about how Sonic Youth overrated.

It is possible that you "just don't get it". I don't get why gay marraige is an issue, so it's possible that you don't get why Sonic Youth is a great band.

No offense, Mr. Botle, but everything you posted is wrong.

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Originally posted by rockbotle:
When Sonic Youth first started releasing albums, they truely possessed a one-of-a-kind sound. In fact, there wasn't even. If that is no longer the case, then I suppose that would speak to SY's influence on music, right? Furthermore, Sonic Youth, as much as anybody in the business, seems to be making music on their own terms. They don't even seem to care what the record buying public wants. That is ballsy astistry.

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First of all, there was stuff similar to Sonic Youth when they came out. Ever heard of Swans? DNA? Teenage Jesus and the Jerks? Lydia Lunch? And as far as your ballsy artistry comment goes: remaking the same album five times is ballsy artistry? Anyone trying to demonstrate SY's musical growth over the years would fail, because there hasn't been any. Hold Sonic Nurse up to Daydream Nation and show me differences. The only difference I can find is that they're not as obnoxious anymore. But only slightly.

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Sonic Youth's music doesn't sound like noise, it _is_ noise. I liken them to Aphex Twin - it's music that isn't immedaitly accesable so many people are turned off to it without ever considering why someone would like it.

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First of all, comparing Sonic Youth to a musical entity as great as Aphex Twin is close to blasphemy in my book. Secondly, my beef with Sonic Youth is not an issue of accessibility. It's an issue of bad music that completely lacks anything resembling, say, melody, or some other such thing.

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To say it's not good music, or is overrated, is an easy claim to make, especially if the claim is going to be made without any evidence.

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I've already said why I don't like Sonic Youth. I find their music boring and pretentious. And I like noise. I would go as far as to say I love noise. But Sonic Youth can't even make interesting noise. Sonic Youth is the only band I can think of that is not capable of making interesting noise. Even Wolf Eyes, a band I loathe to the very core of my being, can make interesting noise.

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I think that many people don't like Sonic Youth because they are offended by it. Not offended in the way that people get offended by Eminem, but offended in the sense that it doesn't fit into a predetermined definition of what that individual previously thought was good music. This can be (and has) be said for Sonic Youth, or Aphex Twin, or _Bitch's Brew_, or the Books, or any number of other bands that are lazily coined as "artsy". Since the person who doesn't like Sonic Youth keeps hearing other, pressumadly smarter people say how great SY is, the person becomes offended by the notion that they don't know why Sonic Youth might actually be a good band. That person will then start to make the connection that if SY really is a great band, and they can't understand why, then they must somehow be stupid. As a result, that person will start making outrageous claims about how Sonic Youth overrated.

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So basically what you're trying to tell me is that I'm close-minded and that I have an inferiority complex? Certainly sounds like something a Sonic Youth fan would say.

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It is possible that you "just don't get it". I don't get why gay marraige is an issue, so it's possible that you don't get why Sonic Youth is a great band.

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Yes, it is possible I don't "get" it. But as stated before, I like noise! I really do. I like Black Dice and the last Liars album and the Boredoms and Mecca Normal and other such bands. I don't understand how come I "get" them and not Sonic Youth.

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Originally posted by rockbotle:
I think that many people don't like Sonic Youth because they are offended by it. Not offended in the way that people get offended by Eminem, but offended in the sense that it doesn't fit into a predetermined definition of what that individual previously thought was good music. This can be (and has) be said for Sonic Youth, or Aphex Twin, or _Bitch's Brew_, or the Books, or any number of other bands that are lazily coined as "artsy". Since the person who doesn't like Sonic Youth keeps hearing other, pressumadly smarter people say how great SY is, the person becomes offended by the notion that they don't know why Sonic Youth might actually be a good band. That person will then start to make the connection that if SY really is a great band, and they can't understand why, then they must somehow be stupid. As a result, that person will start making outrageous claims about how Sonic Youth overrated.

It is possible that you "just don't get it". I don't get why gay marraige is an issue, so it's possible that you don't get why Sonic Youth is a great band.

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I'm going to have to join Crash in expressing a little bit of concern with your comments, rockbotle. While I freely admit that I may be one of those ones who don't "get it," I'm not of the opinion that those who do are smarter than me, or that I'm stupid. That strikes me as quite an odd, and somewhat rude, thing to say.

I've listened to a lot of music, much of it FAR more radical or adventurous than Sonic Youth. Nothing about Sonic Youth is offensive to me or even shocking or genre-shattering. As Crash so aptly points out, there were PLENTY of artists that preceded or were contemporaries of SY who share at least part of their "groundbreaking" sound. I don't like noise as much as Crash does, but I'm not inclined to dislike something just because it was noisy. Or "arty," the lazy label I carelessly offer for stuff I'm apparently not clever enough to get.

I don't claim that Sonic Youth is overrated because I'm worried that you're smarter than me for liking them, rockbotle. I claim they're overrated (although I don't agree that they're the "most overrated band of all time" as the topic title states) because I don't think their body of work is at all deserving of the amount of critical acclaim they've received. And, additionally, because I've found a lot of what they've done over the last 10 years to be fairly redundant.

Bottom line: I don't "get it." You do. Fine. But I don't really think you've got much ground to offer reasons WHY I don't get it, particularly ones that are completely false.

In the spirit of friendly discourse, however, I'm going to read your post charitably and not be personally offended by what could be read as offensive claims about my own psychological state.

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Originally posted by rockbotle:
I think that many people don't like Sonic Youth because they are offended by it. Not offended in the way that people get offended by Eminem, but offended in the sense that it doesn't fit into a predetermined definition of what that individual previously thought was good music. This can be (and has) be said for Sonic Youth, or Aphex Twin, or _Bitch's Brew_, or the Books, or any number of other bands that are lazily coined as "artsy". Since the person who doesn't like Sonic Youth keeps hearing other, pressumadly smarter people say how great SY is, the person becomes offended by the notion that they don't know why Sonic Youth might actually be a good band. That person will then start to make the connection that if SY really is a great band, and they can't understand why, then they must somehow be stupid. As a result, that person will start making outrageous claims about how Sonic Youth overrated.

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I have to echo the sentiment that you're making a pretty substantial leap in logic here and one that's going to be hard to support.

I fear that I, too, have to count myself among those who don't really "get" Sonic Youth. For a long time I attributed it to the fact that came on the scene at the beginning my long hiatus from new music. I've spun their albums more than a few times since and it's never made a connection with me. To suggest, however, that the disconnect is because they challenge my notions of what good music can be is pretty silly. At the risk of being even more pretentious than usual, Sonic Youth on the whole is pretty tame compared to most of what I cut my teeth on in the early 80s alone. Not to put too fine a point on it, but when you can carry on an intelligent discourse about Krysztof Penderecki's "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima," you'll still not have earned the creds to decide that "getting" a single band provides you with a sufficiently open mind and superior esthetic position to decide that those who don't "get" them tire of hearing about them only out of their own sense of inferiority.

Now Playing: "(What's So Funny 'Bout) Peace, Love, and Understanding)" Elvis Costello Armed Forces (Rykodisc)

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I don't understand how come I "get" them and not Sonic Youth.

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Sonic Youth haven't been relevant since 1994; everything since Experimental Jet Set, Thrash and No Star has been rehashed, or, at the very least, contrived. Even their spontaneous, improvisational moments (like the SYR discs) sound rehearsed. And for that reason they're difficult to understand when experienced back-to-front — not much has changed in regards to the artistry that made them an influential force. But listening to Nirvana or My Bloody Valentine should give you a hint as to what they used to mean…

I've been mostly staying out of this, and I hope this does qualify as mostly doing so. I think the argument which has aroused some people's ire is specious to be sure, but I think the problem is with the use of the term "don't get it." If instead of using that term, someone said "don't like it", then there can't really be an argument concerning anything other than taste. I'm not sure you can argue taste unless there's a substantial weight placed on things loved which are almost universally reviled ( or vice versa.) Even then, taste is personal and shouldn't be argued.

The music may be discussed and argued, but personal attacks in the guise of music appreciation are interesting to read but ultimately unjustified, unless you ACTUALLY do know everything about the other person (which in some cases, is within the realm of possibility.) To me, all this makes sense, but I refuse to post quotes or names to further any argument.

I will say that the provocative thread title did lead to a provocative thread. As far as SY goes, I always considered them a slightly-punked-up version of Velvet Underground ( or at least, trying to follow in their footsteps.) So that would imply that they weren't essentially groundbreaking. I appreciate SY more now than I have in the past, but I consider that to be more caused by my changing and not theirs.

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Originally posted by mark f:

The music may be discussed and argued, but personal attacks in the guise of music appreciation are interesting to read but ultimately unjustified, unless you ACTUALLY do know everything about the other person (which in some cases, is within the realm of possibility.) To me, all this makes sense, but I refuse to post quotes or names to further any argument.

I will say that the provocative thread title did lead to a provocative thread. As far as SY goes, I always considered them a slightly-punked-up version of Velvet Underground ( or at least, trying to follow in their footsteps.) So that would imply that they weren't essentially groundbreaking.

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Agreed on all points here, particularly the second paragraph. Sonic Youth's 80s discography points to White Light/White Heat.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: hello world!,

mark makes a nice point about "liking it" and "getting it." Maybe I opened myself up to some of this by putting it that way.

I also think, after some distance from my original reply, that I was a little hard on rockbotle. I took personal affront to something that, in retrospect, was probably aimed at people that rockbotle knew/knows and not directly at Crash or myself.

No hard feelings.

And, for the record, I pulled out Dirty today and, in spite of myself, enjoyed it. I may have to swap my old versions for the two-disc special editions that have come out recently.

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And, for the record, I pulled out Dirty today and, in spite of myself, enjoyed it. I may have to swap my old versions for the two-disc special editions that have come out recently.

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I'm quite partial to their 80s material, as indicated above. Sister and EVOL had been getting a lot of spins on the iPod lately…

I've noticed most of this post was about the semantics of getting it and how that relates to you ability to say something is overrated. The thread title it ludicrous to begin with because there are about a billion bands that suck and get way more airplay (Nickelback and The Darkness spring to mind). Quite frankly, I don't think Sonic Youth are rated that high. It's just that they've released 17 albums and you tend to reach and influence a lot of people when you do that. I own a couple Sonic Youth albums but I've never heard anyone compare them to Jesus or anything. Now Elvis and The Rolling Stones, there you might have a case where the hype (which I'm assuming you're basing the overrated claim on) was leagues past what they were doing.

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Originally posted by Filmore Holmes:
Now Elvis and The Rolling Stones, there you might have a case where the hype (which I'm assuming you're basing the overrated claim on) was leagues past what they were doing.

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See, now you're just wasting talents that would be better put to use bringing this back to life, Filmore.

Now Playing: "Ohh La La" The Ditty Bops The Ditty Bops (Warner)

I do appologize. I'll give it a shot. (who are the Ditty Bops?)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Filmore Mescalito Holmes,

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I've noticed most of this post was about the semantics of getting it and how that relates to you ability to say something is overrated. The thread title it ludicrous to begin with because there are about a billion bands that suck and get way more airplay (Nickelback and The Darkness spring to mind). Quite frankly, I don't think Sonic Youth are rated that high. It's just that they've released 17 albums and you tend to reach and influence a lot of people when you do that. I own a couple Sonic Youth albums but I've never heard anyone compare them to Jesus or anything. Now Elvis and The Rolling Stones, there you might have a case where the hype (which I'm assuming you're basing the overrated claim on) was leagues past what they were doing.

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I was really just trying to provoke people into passionate argument with the title (I figured this was a Sonic Youth-y crowd). No, Sonic Youth is not the most overrated band of all time. They are however, way overrated. I refute your claim that Sonic Youth isn't that highly rated, as it was a million billion reviews talking about how Daydream Nation is a "brilliant, groundbreaking album that shatters conceptions of what music can be and accomplish" that got me to buy it in the first place.

Although Elvis is way overrated as well. Maybe you had to be there.

I'm not much of a Daydream fan, either. I've never really gotten into their earlier stuff but Murray Street is wicked and I can see where they came from. But I see you're saying SY is critically wanked basically (which is more the critic's fault than the album). There are far too many people who have picked up Daydream because they felt they had to, not because they actually wanted to, which is succombing to a pop music mentality. It's sad but it happens all the time. Sgt. Pepper's is another one people feel obligated to buy and really wasn't their best album. I feel Elvis is overrated not because his music wasn't really up to snuff but because he seems to be historically regarded as a genious when he was just ripping off blacks...at least if you've seen any of his many, many biographies.