I'm also having mixed feelings about Paavoharju. Some of it is fantastic but some of it veers a little close to the bad side of world music. I can't stand it when bands add the sounds of babies laughing or crying to their albums (beginning of track 3..does that sound right to you guys?). The female vocals are pretty alright, the male ones are questionable. The music itself is never the issue here, most of it is very interesting with lots of different textures. I love the instrumental interludes.
[QUOTE]I can't stand it when bands add the sounds of babies laughing or crying to their albums (beginning of track 3..does that sound right to you guys?). QUOTE]
I agree with you on this point but I am not sure I am following you on the reference to track 3. Do you have an exact time when it comes in? I heard something that might have baby something at around a minute but it was super vague and fleeting.
Where do the following bands/artists fit onto the avant-garde continuum (if at all):
Birthday Party John Zorn Tim Hecker Sunn o))) Pop Group Yellow Swans Lightning Bolt Hair Police Boredoms CAN This Heat Suicide
I want to know what constitutes noise/harsh-noise/avant-pop/drone and what the difference is between it and avant-garde.
I mean, for the average listener, Deerhoof would be avant-garde, but they aren't labeled as such, so i'm kind of wondering this: is Avant-Garde just a kind of construct used to describe bands that are incredibly obscure?
Posts: 433 | Location: California | Registered: 06 March 2008
Well, there's the Avant-Garde and the experimental. I generally save the term "avant-garde" for modern compositions and experimental for bands. Here's my breakdown for each band:
Birthday Party- Post-punk John Zorn- Experimental/avant-jazz Tim Hecker- never really got into him but isn't he something along the lines of ambient noise? Sunn O)))- Sludge Pop Group- post-punk Yellow Swans- experimental of some sort? Lightning Bolt- noise rock Hair Police- noise Boredoms- experimental/drone/noise punk/etc. Can- kraut-rock This Heat- proggy post-punk Suicide- avant-punk
And I would consider Deerhoof avant-pop or experimental pop.
Harsh noise is stuff like C.C.C.C., Whitehouse, Sissy Spacek, Merzbow, Masonna, and Prurient (I believe; this isn't my style generally).
Well, I consider the Avant-Garde thread a place to comment on anything that wouldn't be covered by the majority of members of the forum but would intrigue JB, Sicnarf, and grabblegarrr. Which means, you could post about any drone, noise, harsh noise, breakcore, post-punk, kraut-rock, math rock, etc. here.
I'm down for discussing just about anything here in relation to the term avant-garde. That means whether or not something is or is not avant-garde (a difficult question to field for sure). I would consider the term to cover music that is breaking new ground in some way, but most of the groups we discuss here aren't really doing that even if they are operating outside of the normal sphere of most people's tastes or interests. Plus it can be very difficult to determine what constitutes breaking new ground in terms of music anyway. Most anything a person could possibly imagine trying to test the limits of sound itself have been tried. We're just dealing with various mutations and permutations of the fallout from originators. Not a bad place to be at all and I'm certainly not trying to imply that there is nothing new that could be done. I'm also not implying that just because a certain artist or group was the originator of a sound that they are necessarily the best at it. Sometimes it takes the work of many to bring an idea to complete fruition and sometimes it can stretch across decades through expanding upon initial templates. Does that make sense to you guys?
Shoegaze isn't avant-garde (a term which I generally reserve for modern compositions) but it could probably fall under experimental... I don't listen to much shoegaze so I really couldn't tell you.
Do you feel that shoegaze is experimental? If so, how do you feel that it operates outside of the norm in music?
I wouldn't say all shoegaze is avant-garde, in fact 99% of it is just more texturally focused rock music than anything, but it certainly can/could be. If we're talking Loveless, that is one of the few albums that comes to my mind as breaking new ground. There were some things before it that paved the way (Dinosaur Jr, Jesus & Mary Chain, Cocteau Twins), but I think it's an absolutely astonishing, singular, and perfect piece of work. There hasn't been another group that's managed to even come close to approximating what it sounds like. Maybe on a purely superficial level but in terms of what's really going on, absolutely not.
Originally posted by jonathanbrisby: I wouldn't say all shoegaze is avant-garde, in fact 99% of it is just more texturally focused rock music than anything, but it certainly can/could be.
That's exactly what prevented me from saying that it is.. I'm sure there are bands coming at shoegaze from some sort of experimental perspective, but the majority are going at it as rock music.
Agreed. I guess what I'm getting at here is that pretty much any style of music could be included in avant-garde as long as its pushing the boundaries of what can be accomplished with sound.
Originally posted by jonathanbrisby: I wouldn't say all shoegaze is avant-garde, in fact 99% of it is just more texturally focused rock music than anything, but it certainly can/could be. If we're talking Loveless, that is one of the few albums that comes to my mind as breaking new ground. There were some things before it that paved the way (Dinosaur Jr, Jesus & Mary Chain, Cocteau Twins), but I think it's an absolutely astonishing, singular, and perfect piece of work. There hasn't been another group that's managed to even come close to approximating what it sounds like. Maybe on a purely superficial level but in terms of what's really going on, absolutely not.
Amen, Loveless is king. I have been going back and listening to that album a lot this year...it is like the perfect album.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sicnarf,
Which means, you could post about any drone, noise, harsh noise, breakcore, post-punk, kraut-rock, math rock, etc. here.
Is shoegaze avant-garde?
I think that what the end result of this little "what is the avant-garde thread and how do I use it?" discussion should be this:
There are really no exact specifications on what constitutes the "avant-garde." It is a term for innovation that spans all genres of music and refuses anything but broad definitions. I feel like this thread is pretty much a little haven in which to discuss anything outside of the ordinary. You won't find much of the asanine bickering that seems to float through a lot of the threads here on Metacritic or music threads elsewhere. What you will find is a small group of very well informed music enthusiasts who are interested in the discovery of any exciting new music worth listening to. Really, this thread is the only reason I am even registered on these Metacritic boards at all.
Which means, you could post about any drone, noise, harsh noise, breakcore, post-punk, kraut-rock, math rock, etc. here.
Is shoegaze avant-garde?
I think that what the end result of this little "what is the avant-garde thread and how do I use it?" discussion should be this:
There are really no exact specifications on what constitutes the "avant-garde." It is a term for innovation that spans all genres of music and refuses anything but broad definitions. I feel like this thread is pretty much a little haven in which to discuss anything outside of the ordinary. You won't find much of the asanine bickering that seems to float through a lot of the threads here on Metacritic or music threads elsewhere. What you will find is a small group of very well informed music enthusiasts who are interested in the discovery of any exciting new music worth listening to. Really, this thread is the only reason I am even registered on these Metacritic boards at all.
i agree wholeheartedly. i don't post on this part of the forum too much, but i feel the "avant-garde" forum needs to exist because the vast majority of the bands discussed here are not discussed anywhere else on the metacritic music forums. also, i have gotten some great rec's from this forum.
also, for jglass: what do you mean by "modern composition"? this could mean all music made in this time period. are you referencing contemporary classical? if so i think we should be careful because most of that stuff belongs on the classical thread (though there is some art-rock, contemporary rock cross over stuff). also, in the context of the classical world, a lot of contemporary classical is not "avant-garde" per se - for example, a serialist piece, would seem avant-garde to a crowd accustomed to rock music (no matter how experimental), but it would be pretty normal to those who listen to contemporary classical.
Posts: 513 | Location: San Diego | Registered: 26 November 2007
When I say "modern composition" I'm referring to avant-garde composers (Cage, Branca, Glass, Reich, Stockhausen, etc. etc.) which I generally would not discuss in the "Classical" forum... that's what the Avant-Garde thread is for.
