great to see This Heat getting praise after so long ..in cold storage..

quote:

If you liked Deceit, I'd spring for the Out of Cold Storage box set. It has

I just got Out of Cold Storage last week for $85. It is wonderful.

Is Blues Control's Puff only on LP? I really need to start opening myself up to vinyl. Has anyone listened to Blies Control's Holy Mountain CD release?

I heard some new Grouper samples that sound amazing too but all of her current releases are on vinyl too!

Also also, I am looking for Burning Star Core recommendations...


PS - I watched the DVD for the Gang Gang Dance Retina release and while it wasn't bad I might not ever watch it again. It is just a mashup of different clips and images to a remix of previous recordings. So for whatever that is worth..

The Blues Control self-titled CD on Holy Mountain is good stuff. I just got it last week. There is at least one Grouper record on disc, we have a copy of it at the record store where I work. I'll check to see what the title is this afternoon and let you know.

As for Burning Star Core, I have a double CD collection of random stuff and one called The Very Heart of the World. Both of them are awesome. He (Spencer C. Yeh) has a new record out, I can't remember what the title of it is though.

quote:

least one Grouper record on disc, we have a copy of it at the record store where I work

I think she has two cds out. I have Wide and the other that I am aware of is Way They Crept or something like that. I just heard a couple of mp3s of some of her new stuff that I think are leaps and bounds better but it appears to be on vinyl.

Yeah, looks like the Grouper that we have on disc is Wide.

the newest burning star core cd is titled 'blood lightning 2007'... noyce !

its great, defanitely recommended. my first burning star core cd and its left a great impression. track 4 is my favorite off of it, for what its worth.

Just saw Marnie Stern last night playing with Zach Hill and an additional guitarist. Zach has to be the best drummer that has ever lived. It was completely nuts. He only uses one bass pedal and he plays that pedal faster than any double bass pedaler I have ever heard in my entire life, recorded or otherwise.

first of all, avant garde shouldn't be confused as a genre, as it's more of a style that any genre is capable of. avant lacks pattern, conventionalism and predictability. even though it's traditionally and initially a classical term, it can be used for people from aphex twin to panda bear from castanets to cocorosie all the way to meredith monk and, thee john cage.

Or thee "Revolution 9".

quote:

Originally posted by Sicnarf:
Just saw Marnie Stern last night playing with Zach Hill and an additional guitarist. Zach has to be the best drummer that has ever lived. It was completely nuts. He only uses one bass pedal and he plays that pedal faster than any double bass pedaler I have ever heard in my entire life, recorded or otherwise.

Oh man, I love Marnie Stern's new album. I think it's the best rawk album I've heard in awhile, and isn't getting anywhere near the attention or credit it deserves. I'll be seeing her live early in August. I can't wait. I've seen Zach Hill with Hella in the past and he is impressive.

quote:

Originally posted by outof_nowhere:
first of all, avant garde shouldn't be confused as a genre, as it's more of a style that any genre is capable of. avant lacks pattern, conventionalism and predictability. even though it's traditionally and initially a classical term, it can be used for people from aphex twin to panda bear from castanets to cocorosie all the way to meredith monk and, thee john cage.

do you have anything interesting to add to this topic? currently, its being used for a specific genre.. but if you would like to add to the discussion than certainly do so. we don't need lessons on what avant garde is, buddy ole pal.

quote:

first of all, avant garde shouldn't be confused as a genre, as it's more of a style that any genre is capable of. avant lacks pattern, conventionalism and predictability. even though it's traditionally and initially a classical term, it can be used for people from aphex twin to panda bear from castanets to cocorosie all the way to meredith monk and, thee john cage.

I haven't ever made the claim that avant-garde is a genre so to speak. In that same respect, if you go back and look at all of the topics here and the artists discussed, I think you'll find that there hasn't been a single time when someone tried to call "bullshit" on what was or was not an avant-garde recording. You're certainly correct that it can be just about anything "out there," as far as music is concerned. The tag for the thread is an implication of the discussion contained therein, not the debate over what is or is not avant-garde. I personally wouldn't want to go near that discussion with a ten foot pole. This is more like a friendly chat with like-minded individuals who want to participate and since this is an open forum, it's not exclusive or off-limits to anyone interested. I guess what I want to know is, what's the point of posting a comment like that unless you're just trying to start an argument where there isn't one?

quote:

Originally posted by outof_nowhere:
first of all, avant garde shouldn't be confused as a genre, as it's more of a style that any genre is capable of. avant lacks pattern, conventionalism and predictability. even though it's traditionally and initially a classical term, it can be used for people from aphex twin to panda bear from castanets to cocorosie all the way to meredith monk and, thee john cage.

Some people use it as a genre label. Most of you guys have probably gotten this before, but the term 'avant-garde' comes from French. I would translate it (half-assedly, mind you) as 'leading edge.' If language users used that ole Occam's Razor on a regular basis, you might just say 'vanguard' and leave it at that. But then you lose the eau du snooty Froggy.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by saying that the avant-garde "lacks pattern." You can call any string of sounds a pattern. I might go so far as to argue that ALL music is based on some kind of pattern, even if those patterns are chosen based on a desire to avoid repeating musical patterns of the past.

And if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty, avant-garde happens in a completely different era than the Classical period (Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven (kind of), yadda yadda). I think you're using classical in the generic sense - the penguins who go to big concerts halls and date Dana Barrett. You know, those guys.

Second, some of the musicians you mentioned might be better filed using other labels.

Aphex Twin - Electro (just kidding)
Panda Bear - (sample based) psychedelic pop
Castanets - creep folk
Coco Rosie - meh

I'm coming to think Meredith Monk has more affinity with minimalism than avant garde.

Or wait, maybe I missed the boat. Is that what you were getting at with the 'avant-garde is not a genre' comment?

WOOO I have split endz now!!!

oops, double post. Just read the http://www.dustedmagazine.com/reviews/3664 of Wooden Wand - James and the Quiet. ugh.

Normally those guys kick ass, but this Alexander Provan guy really sounds like he just wanted to shit on the album because of some things (confrontational to the press) James Toth said. I say that mainly because Provan's biggest beef with the album seems to be that the music has been taken out of its proper context. GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK! If you want to yell at somebody for taking things out of context rag on fucking Girl Talk, fer chrissakes.

Or bitch about the internet, while you're at it. Ripping things out of the context is just a sign o the times, not a symptom of bad art.

I hate it when reviewers find ridiculous reasons to badmouth music. I haven't actually heard the album, but now I almost want to go get it just to spite that fucker.

By the way, [I]Gypsy Freedom[/], which I think JB turned me on to (thanks), has grown immensely on me. It would probably rank pretty high on my '06 list if I were into rehashing lists like that.

Are there any fans of Dialing In? Here's her bio from last.fm:

It's definitely noise music, but a sort of noise music that we rarely encounter. Beautiful noise. Listenable noise. Mysterious noise. Thick and gritty, harsh but gently harsh. Cows In Lye continues on from where Ketalysergicmetha Mother left off. Each track a dense sonic journey rife with looped found sounds, voices and inadvertent rhythms, instruments and snippets of songs, all beautifully tangled up into absolutely breathtaking miniature worlds of sound. It's like Jeck and Basinski, Hecker and Marclay all playing at the same time. It can be that confusional, but can also be that compellingly complex.

Thick corrosive washes of crumbling sound that so distinctly resemble blown out downtuned guitars cover everything, beautiful looped melodies, strange disembodied vocals, rumbling bass lines, everything an abstract beautiful fragment doused in a crackling gritty patina. Like a supercharged, sludgier Oval, or some beautiful ambient record played on a broken old tape player, and broadcast through a set of busted up high school loudspeakers. echoing off the concrete walls until the natural reverb piles up into a whole 'nother layer of murk and hum.

I just listened to Ketalysergicmetha Mother and this shit is breathtaking. Would anyone happen to have any of her other records besides that one?

I haven't read that Dusted review of the new Wooden Wand, but I'm definitely not a fan of the record either. I love the Wooden Wand & the Vanishing Voice stuff, but Toth's solo records don't do anything for me. I think it must be that I miss hearing Satya Sai's voice sometimes and all of the noisier elements. I don't think his solo stuff is bad though, it's just that when I go to pull out a Wooden Wand record I'll almost invariably pull out Gypsy Freedom, Xiao, or my personal favorite, Buck Dharma.

I do hate Girl Talk though. I think there are some old threads where I shit on his record as much as possible. Even worse was when a few months back a friend of mine from Nashville told me that Greg Gillis (aka Girl Talk) when trying to book shows would send a rider out saying that one of his requirements was that he would absolutely not play with other DJs or electronic artists and only play with indie rock bands. Apparently he was trying to book a show at the bar that is owned by the same guy who owns the record store where she manages and he brought the rider in and showed it to her. I think it definitely proves my point that he panders to sentimental indie rockers.

quote:

Originally posted by GG Allin:

quote:

Originally posted by outof_nowhere:
first of all, avant garde shouldn't be confused as a genre, as it's more of a style that any genre is capable of. avant lacks pattern, conventionalism and predictability. even though it's traditionally and initially a classical term, it can be used for people from aphex twin to panda bear from castanets to cocorosie all the way to meredith monk and, thee john cage.

do you have anything interesting to add to this topic? currently, its being used for a specific genre.. but if you would like to add to the discussion than certainly do so. we don't need lessons on what avant garde is, buddy ole pal.

sorry, i didn't know i was giving a "lesson." i thought sicnarf wanted our impressions on avant-garde and that's what i was doing.

quote:

Originally posted by jonathanbrisby:

I haven't ever made the claim that avant-garde is a genre so to speak. In that same respect, if you go back and look at all of the topics here and the artists discussed, I think you'll find that there hasn't been a single time when someone tried to call "bullshit" on what was or was not an avant-garde recording. You're certainly correct that it can be just about anything "out there," as far as music is concerned. The tag for the thread is an implication of the discussion contained therein, not the debate over what is or is not avant-garde. I personally wouldn't want to go near that discussion with a ten foot pole. This is more like a friendly chat with like-minded individuals who want to participate and since this is an open forum, it's not exclusive or off-limits to anyone interested. I guess what I want to know is, what's the point of posting a comment like that unless you're just trying to start an argument where there isn't one?

fair enough, i'll take your word on it. i didn't really post it to create an argument nor receive any reply. just merely, stating a thought and reminder, 'cause yeah, i don't know what you people are like. but like i said, i will take your word on it. my intentions were not to patronize or to present bad behaviour. i find myself friendly as anyone else here.

quote:

Originally posted by vitunkrapula:

Some people use it as a genre label. Most of you guys have probably gotten this before, but the term 'avant-garde' comes from French. I would translate it (half-assedly, mind you) as 'leading edge.' If language users used that ole Occam's Razor on a regular basis, you might just say 'vanguard' and leave it at that. But then you lose the eau du snooty Froggy.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by saying that the avant-garde "lacks pattern." You can call any string of sounds a pattern. I might go so far as to argue that ALL music is based on some kind of pattern, even if those patterns are chosen based on a desire to avoid repeating musical patterns of the past.

And if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty, avant-garde happens in a completely different era than the Classical period (Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven (kind of), yadda yadda). I think you're using classical in the generic sense - the penguins who go to big concerts halls and date Dana Barrett. You know, those guys.

Second, some of the musicians you mentioned might be better filed using other labels.

Aphex Twin - Electro (just kidding)
Panda Bear - (sample based) psychedelic pop
Castanets - creep folk
Coco Rosie - meh

I'm coming to think Meredith Monk has more affinity with minimalism than avant garde.

Or wait, maybe I missed the boat. Is that what you were getting at with the 'avant-garde is not a genre' comment?

WOOO I have split endz now!!!

well i base the assumption on a pattern being a sequence with no determined length that repetes itself. your thoughts of anything being pattern is interesting though. yes, sorry, i was using classical in a generic sense i'm not sure what era it evolved, but i'm sure what was avant in the ranaissance is very much generic today, because i think it was easier to be "different" in past eras. than again, back then synthesizers and electrical instruments were not invented yet.

hah, yeah of course aphex twin is idm, panda bear is psychedellia and so on, but if you listen to all idm music and then listen to aphex twin you can tell that richard is in another realm, same goes for psychedlic pop/acid folk.

quote:

Originally posted by outof_nowhere:

quote:

Originally posted by vitunkrapula:

Some people use it as a genre label. Most of you guys have probably gotten this before, but the term 'avant-garde' comes from French. I would translate it (half-assedly, mind you) as 'leading edge.' If language users used that ole Occam's Razor on a regular basis, you might just say 'vanguard' and leave it at that. But then you lose the eau du snooty Froggy.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by saying that the avant-garde "lacks pattern." You can call any string of sounds a pattern. I might go so far as to argue that ALL music is based on some kind of pattern, even if those patterns are chosen based on a desire to avoid repeating musical patterns of the past.

And if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty, avant-garde happens in a completely different era than the Classical period (Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven (kind of), yadda yadda). I think you're using classical in the generic sense - the penguins who go to big concerts halls and date Dana Barrett. You know, those guys.

Second, some of the musicians you mentioned might be better filed using other labels.

Aphex Twin - Electro (just kidding)
Panda Bear - (sample based) psychedelic pop
Castanets - creep folk
Coco Rosie - meh

I'm coming to think Meredith Monk has more affinity with minimalism than avant garde.

Or wait, maybe I missed the boat. Is that what you were getting at with the 'avant-garde is not a genre' comment?

WOOO I have split endz now!!!

well i base the assumption on a pattern being a sequence with no determined length that repetes itself. your thoughts of anything being pattern is interesting though. yes, sorry, i was using classical in a generic sense i'm not sure what era it evolved, but i'm sure what was avant in the ranaissance is very much generic today, because i think it was easier to be "different" in past eras. than again, back then synthesizers and electrical instruments were not invented yet.

hah, yeah of course aphex twin is idm, panda bear is psychedellia and so on, but if you listen to all idm music and then listen to aphex twin you can tell that richard is in another realm, same goes for psychedlic pop/acid folk.

huh. It seems entirely too obvious when I write it out, but I was just thinking about how conservaties like to make liberals sound crazy by calling them the 'fringe' (or extremists). But when you call it the fringe, you can see the contrast with the 'mainstream' or 'popular.' What these terms bring out is that we have this (perhaps unconscious) metaphor for music (as a whole) as an expanding body (of possibilities, I assume). The outsiders expand the possibilities, and the mainstream kinda just hangs out and has fun (and now, the oh-so-polite "Not that there's anything wrong with that...). But maybe that's part of why it's so tricky to talk about avant garde as a unified movement - because the musicians we call avant garde are on the fringe. So instead of referring to a 'patch' (more like a regular genre), we're talking about a ring of some kind. talking about the outsiders.

See, the funny thing about your definition of a pattern is that it's quasi-paradoxical. I mean, if you know that this thing repeats, it must have a definite length. You have to be able to tell when the pattern is repeating, so in some sense it has a definite length but might be repeated indefinitely.

The definite length bit seems to fall apart though when you think about fractals. But even then if you consider the scale (whether you're looking at a mountain or a grain of sand) to be the limiting factor whereas in basket weaving the definitive length is actually a length, it works out again.

You might argue that works of John Cage and other aleatoric (chance based) works are an attempt to rid music of pattern. That was a tempting thought to me for quite a while. But after reading some of Cage's writings (which I highly recommend, by the way), I've come to think that these works are really attempts to reflect nature in all of her apparently random glory. And even when you let the music happen with as little 'guiding' as possible, patterns still creeep in. It's an intrinsic part of how we hear things. I.e. in 3'44", if I hear a cough or a ventilation fan I recognize those sounds by virtue of the fact that there are patterns hidden in those sounds that I can pick up on. I mean, the weather looks so chaotic to us only because there are certain regularities that fool us into thinking that weather systems are, in principle at least, predictable.

kinda went off the deep end there. Anyway, short reply - I think all you need to say is that a pattern is repeatable. But even that leaves room for philosophical pissants who ask "And exactly what does it mean for something to repeat?" Cos you'll never get the exact same thing twice. But somehow we can still tell when it's raining (over and over again), even though it isn't ever the same rain. But there are always clues to pick out - little similarities that make us want to say "yeah, I've seen that before."

You might find this meaningless, but since it's often grouped with Cage's more avant-garde, early works, what do you think of "Revolution 9"? I've been trying to get a serious response at various sites for years, and nobody seems to be willing to listen to it repeatedly. It's really not that scary and much easier for me to relate to. For God's sake, I've heard it at least 150 times. Anybody have any thoughts or questions about Lennon's monster? He told producer George Martin that IT WAS going to be released as THE single, but Lennon lost out on that one.