quote:

Originally posted by Kulturtrager:
Go ahead, knock yourself out.
You clearly have some personal problem with me; you are moving away from the core argument to have a dig. I'm not gonna bite anymore.

I thought we were having a debate about "the beauty of word craft". I'm just trying to understand why you've singled out Finn as a poor lyricist, when you've actually admitted that he's doing something different than the average pop lyricist.

This is why people think you're a troll, Ishy. You've made a generalized statement that Finn uses poor scansion, mixed metaphors, blah, blah, blah. But other than citing his pretentious use of the word "suture", you haven't provided any examples of what you're actually talking about. Then, when we actually give you what you want, a debate, you shut down the argument because you think you're being treated unfairly. It's BS. If you don't want to argue, don't start an argument.

quote:

Originally posted by EricG75:

quote:

Originally posted by sans_success:
Whatever happened to Charlemagne?

According to Almost Killed Me outtake "Curves and Nerves", Charlemagne was killed by a hoodrat chick, most likely Holly. In two other songs, "Killer Parties" and "Don't Let Me Explode", they say to "smile polite and say something vague" if asked about Charlemagne.

I've heard some theories that the murder that occurs on Stay Positive is Charlemagne's, although his name is never mentioned.

Actually I was looking for an answer like "I heard he got caught up in some complicated things" or "another lover lost to the restaurant raids". Your post was very informative though.

Firstly, I couldn't care less what stupid label people on these boards deign to give me.
That kind of assumption is pure childishness.

Secondly, it's actually going to take a lot of time for me to sit down, find the songs of Finn's that particularly bother me, as I haven't listened to the band for ages ( but I do know that I have him filed away as being far less than his reputation deserves ), and then try to write a detailed response (see paragraph 5 ) as to why I find particular passages poor.

I just don't have the time. Plus, once the insults started coming, like your new 'blah, blah, blah' gem, well that just puts me off, and as I approach debates slowly and carefully, I try to take each point one at a time, which doesn't work in a place like this.

I was only looking to express the opinion that I find the quality of lyric writing really poor these days, and Finn is doing something different, but doing it poorly, and yet being held in high regard.

I don't need to go beyond that point, and it would be foolish of me to do so anyway, as you and others would take my detailed criticism and mock it, or take it as a personal insult to yourself, and talking about music is like dancing about architecture, as someone once said.It's just impossible to get across what I'm talking about really without us sitting together in a room, listening to the music with the words.

So that's why I say, go listen to the band and enjoy them. I don't care if you agree with me or not, I'm just trying to provide a template for thought.

My plane leaves in a few hours. Take care of yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by Kulturtrager:
Firstly, I couldn't care less what stupid label people on these boards deign to give me.

Sw33t, because right now I have deigned to grant you the title of 'tepid faux-intellectual'.

As to why I haven't 'engaged' with your 'detailed critique'; I haven't seen anything worth engaging with.

Seriously, all you've offered is

quote:

Originally posted by Kulturtrager:

Not only is his scansion often terrible, a mortal sin in lyrics, which indicates a lack of natural rhythm, he fails to paint images beyond the most obvious, crass and broad.

He mixes his metaphors, talks about the same old things all the time, overreaches with attemps at humour, lacks decent climaxes.

I find no resonance in his words. They don't call me back, they are too one-dimensional.

That's not a detailed critique. To call that superficial would do it too much credit. You've offered no valid opinion. So instead I'm more or less content to mock you for your douchebaggery.

I'd love to hang out with you and your 'muso friends', by the way, who talk with

quote:

Originally posted by Kulturtrager:
a ,mixture of literary terminology intended to to be accurate and informative and total fucken swearing all the time.

Seriously, you sound like the baddest group of slam poets on the quadrangle.

It's all fine and dandy if you want to express a contrary opinion, and "provide a template for thought", but I've noticed you often provide a lot of generic criticism and when asked to elaborate, you either won't or can't.

I think if you're going to offer an opinion that strongly goes against common public opinion, you ought to be able to back it up.

For instance, if I were to say "The Godfather is the shittiest movie ever made", you'd probably think I had no taste, hadn't actually seen The Godfather, or just trying to get a rise out of people. Surely you'd ask me why I felt The Godfather was a terrible film and ask for some specific examples. And if I wouldn't or couldn't, you'd tell me I was full of crap, right?

Kulturtrager, rather than reporting me to the mods, why didn't you just offer the detailed criticism that you claim to have given in the first place?

As Eric said, you've come here offering an opinion that goes strongly against the common opinion. Surely you were intending to provoke some heated discussion, and you got precisely that.

These clever kids are killing me. For one, they ain't that clever.

I didn't want to get involved but some things just beg to be squashed.

I respect you disagreeing with someone, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I certainly disagree with Ish on this specific band and album but I do, however, feel you have taken things too far in your attempt to maliciously tear him down. You can choose to address his comments on the band or debate his reasons on disliking Finn and his singing but please refrain from other name-calling, vicious retorts and harmful, needless attacks, please.

Roger that. Kid gloves on.

I'll try to be crystal clear.
I reported you because you are insulting, mocking and create an awful atmosphere that would surely put off potential new members.

That is a different issue however to your question about detailed criticism.
You conflate the two issues and also create a false model based on what I wrote, which you then take me to task for.

I wasn't intending anything beyond responding to Eric's original questioning of my thoughts on the similarities between the Steadies and the Crows. I didn't expect one word from my post to be picked out as if it were a dead fish to be thrown in the garbage, and then to be mocked, insulted, called pretentious, have all kinds of assumptions made about my character.

You seem not to have read my previous posts if you ask me about detailed criticism.
I don't have time or the inclination to go writing all the stuff I would like to write (plus I think it's pointless)...I mean I shldn't be writing this...i gotta pack...

By detail, I simply meant that I offered many of the main points I find Finn failing on, rather than just saying he's bad. My response was valid, and provided any number of springboards to go from, but instead I got nothing about imagery, syntax, line endings, the sound of words against the tone of the music, the resonance of his language, stylistic tics becoming cliche or whatever.

So, trying to be crystal clear...I have not the time nor the inclination to talk with you guys.

If you look at my posts in other places, like religion or books or politics, I will get into more detail if I feel comfortable. In the end, it's up to me to give, not to you to mockingly demand.

I'm sorry if your feelings were hurt. I wasn't trying to insult you, just demonstrate why I found your opinion more or less invalid. It's true that I picked out one word as an example, but I could have done so just as easily with the rest of your post. All you're doing when you talk about "imagery, syntax, line endings, the sound of words against the tone of the music, the resonance of his language, stylistic tics becoming cliche" is trying to dress up your simple opinion that you dislike the guy, in the trappings of vaguely academic-sounding pretentiousness.

Surely you must have known you risked getting laughed out of the thread for trying to come at one of the smartest, hardest-rocking and most bar-slappingly fun rock bands of the last 20 years with the language of poetry criticism, and half-baked poetry criticism at that. Honestly? Syntax? line-endings? I understand these are the reasons you don't like Finn's lyrics. Fine. But as I said, I'm a master's in literature. I've done more poetry- criticism than I care to remember. And in my admittedly-not-very-humble opinion, even if you insist on applying the blisteringly uncool tools of analytical poetry criticism, Finn's lyrics stand up juuuust fine. I find his imagery sublime; 'Multitude of casualties' comes immediately to mind. A bunch of kids lose one of their friends, and deal with the aftermath:

"Like a hawk out on the highways we were looking round for something that just died"

"Now we forage on the frontage roads
We drive at nights
I guess it just feels that much safer
We scrounge around for sustenance
We mostly eat it in the back half of the theaters
We spent a few years nodding off in matinees
High as hell and shivering and smashed
We were hoping for an action adventure
Or something LOUD that we could feel through all the Feminax"

Welcome to lump-in-throat territory.

Sorry guy; he's a poet, and a good one.
I find his language evocative, and forceful, and resonant.

The one place where I'll meet you halfway is about his stylistic tics becoming cliche. If he'd kept on doing the same thing that he did on almost killed me and separation sunday, he'd risk being the kind of artist that could write his songs with some kinda Hold-Steady-Libs generator. But, if you'd paid attention to his last two albums, and I suspect you haven't listened to them, you'd notice that he's not going down this path. He's fucking with the formula, both lyrically and musically, (musically as much as you can, within a classic rock context) and he's not becoming stale. Pretty impressive.

quote:

Originally posted by EricG75:

But other than citing his pretentious use of the word "suture", you haven't provided any examples of what you're actually talking about.

I'm missing something in this debate. What is pretentious about the word "suture"? Isn't this a pretty common medical term?

But, I find "transverberate" to be a cool word. I looked it up. "To strike or pierce through". Baby, let's "transverberate".

The Hold Steady is one of my favorite bands. I love every album. But, I do agree with Ish that Finn's lyrics can at times be awkward. At times, they can be fucking brilliant. So, he doesn't like Finn as a lyricist. Taste in music is subjective. He has backed up his opinion more than most. Give the guy a break.

I like both Counting Crows and The Hold Steady. They have some similarities, in that they both have a classic rock bent. And, let's face it - the Counting Crows have sold millions of albums, penned the theme song to a Shrek movie, and get radio airplay - none of which The Hold Steady has accomplished (although a Craig Finn theme song for Shrek 4 would be interesting). I'm sure that the Steadies look at this as an opportunity to reach a larger audience by playing for an established act that can still sell a decent amount of tickets. It's an opportunity. I'd go see that double bill!

On the subject of Cherlemange, I can't think of the song right now, but doesn't Holly wipe her nose and then wink, insinuating that he OD'ed?

I need to get those outtakes. If I don't believe in illegal downloading, how do I get my hands on them?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: The Fall of Troy,

quote:

Originally posted by The Fall of Troy:

I need to get those outtakes. If I don't believe in illegal downloading, how do I get my hands on them?

Start believing.

Or buy an import copy. My Australian versions include all the outtakes/b-sides. Japanese ones are probably the same.

I bought Stay Positive in the store the day it was released and it had all three bonus tracks. If that is what we are refering to.

I assume they must have included them on all of the preordered copies and the first printing that was sent out to the stores.

I believe he was referring to the Almost Killed Me outtakes that detail Charlemagne's end...

quote:

Originally posted by Chamberk:
I believe he was referring to the Almost Killed Me outtakes that detail Charlemagne's end...

Yes.

Hell yes! The Steadies are playing the Wiltern in L.A. with Drive-By Truckers in November. I'm there!

And they're playing the Tabernacle in Atlanta in November... I've never heard the Truckers, but I'm willing to take a chance take a chance, it should be solid.

quote:

Originally posted by EricG75:

quote:

Originally posted by Chamberk:
I believe he was referring to the Almost Killed Me outtakes that detail Charlemagne's end...

Yes.

Figured as much. I remember it was not too long ago that b-sides and outakes were only released as bonus tracks in japan and europe. It seems the trend has changed and outakes are now included on physical copies of american prints, often as bonus disks, to encourage physical record sales in the states. I have to say I'm very happy about this. It feels like a huge bonus to be rewarded for preordering or otherwise actually buying the album.

So as much as I hate the three songs on a single track idea at the end of Stay Positive, I have to give them great credit for including them.

quote:

Originally posted by Shadrach:

So as much as I hate the three songs on a single track idea at the end of Stay Positive, I have to give them great credit for including them.

Speaking of which: Two-handed handshake? Holy shit.

Just in case you people thought you had the Final Word for some reason...you don't. A while ago I read some of the things going on in this thread and felt compelled to post. Every time somebody started throwing around superlatives I was reminded of this uh thing I read a while ago. Written by one Taylor Clark of pitchforkmedia.com (a website that could appropriately be called The Hold Steady's Biggest Fan), and located by me (another fan), it just has that special, refreshing ring of truth to it.

"

You know that guy nobody likes who absolutely has to chatter for hours about the wild, crazy-ass party he went to the other night? The very same guy who was always totally getting checked out by this hot chick but he couldn't talk to her because they totally had to bounce right away to go to this other intense party? He's the lead singer in Lifter Puller now. Lead talker, I should say, because actually causing anything musical to leave his mouth isn't something that's done much on this album.

Admittedly by no fault of his own, Craig Finn has inherited one of the most nasal, obnoxious voices in music. He makes full use of his propensity to annoy by ensuring that his lyrics are proportionately disagreeable. Each song on Fiestas and Fiascos recounts the tale of a wild episode in which a woman does something crazy, each beginning with "she said" or "she had," each nearly indistinguishable from the last. The lyrics are that derivative breed of "Baby slaughtered my grandparents with a hatchet, but she's perfect anyway" type thing that one would expect to hear on an Everclear record. All of this is spoken irrhythmically, rarely sung.

"


This was about a Lifter Puller record, of course. Back in the days of Atmosphere cameos. And, as mentioned elsewhere in the review, embarrassing ad-libs from guest rappers. In their songs. Could they have been trying any harder to seem like guys who get laid? Could they ever have tried harder?

But now that it's The Hold Steady and they're college radio heavyweights, it's supposed to be a foregone conclusion that not only is everything written in that review (by a guy who in all likelihood has more experience and knowledge than anyone here, myself included) total haterism and bollocks and bullshit and nonsense and completely wrong, but the guy being written about is a heaven-sent lyrical genius. I don't think so. I only wish you hypocrites hadn't chased off that one guy who had the wherewithal to disagree.

SINCE he didn't lay down before the rest of you, he was a "troll." That shit was maddening. Anyway...I love The Hold Steady. But stop rhapsodizing, honestly. Most of the claims being made are pretty bogus. Craig Finn might say something at times, and his imagery is exciting. And evocative+exuberant! But Finn mostly specializes in glamor. Literary references appeal to the kids who have that fucking retarded visual bookshelf facebook feature (are they fucking kidding with that shit?). And Finn "writes about" drugs and self-destruction in a way that's obviously meant to make the band cool first, make fans and listeners feel cool second, and say something relevant or constructive maybe sixth or seventh.

It's the kind of thing that should be taken into account.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BlackGravel,