Hey, I wasn't trying to insult you. Comparing the Hold Steady to Counting Crows is a truly inspired troll, and I give credit where it's due. But you're still a douche; you should wear the term with pride!

Also, I'm an Aussie, not an American. I'd call you a cunt if I thought you were hard enough, but so far you only rate a 'douche' on the vaginal-insult scale. Prove me wrong, kiddo!

quote:

Originally posted by Kulturtrager:

I consider myself a damn fine judge of lyric writing

I guess that makes one of us.

Also, get a new buzzword. As youandwhosearmy pointed out, when you keep talking about "scansion", it sort of makes you sound like a prententious douche. Or Australian. One of the two.

Alright. One by one.
Army; please don't use those silly american insults...we've got so much more in our language to throw at people.

eric, eric, eric...sigh...perhaps you don't know me. Perhaps you have only come to know one part of my life and my experiences in the last bloody year... so to come into my world now and start telling me that scansion is my 'buzzword' is idiotic.

I and my muso friends have been using the damn word since we got a decent education in a typical Aussie school, and began writing music and poetry together.

You can run scared from language that makes you feel awkward, but I write on these boards the same bloody way I talk with my mates, a ,mixture of literary terminology intended to to be accurate and informative and total fucken swearing all the time.

So, stop taking things personally. I don't know you, you don't know me, but I at least provide a detailed critique of Finn when asked, using my standard vocab.

(I do quite like their use of horns tho')

So Kulturt, what artists would you say have truly mastered the noble art of scansion?

I mean, scansionally speaking, on a purely scansional level, who, in your considered opinion, are the reigning scions of scansion? the masters of meter? the.. uh.. princes of prosody?

Yeah, I have a master's degree in lit. I know what scansion means. I've studied mad poetryz. And you're still a douche.

well, what the fuck??!! If you know what bloody scansion is, and how fucking useful and common it is in discussing lyric writing in pop songs...why the put on act that I'm doing something wanky??

jeez mate, you've gone to the dark side I fear...

quote:

Originally posted by Kulturtrager:

I and my muso friends

Were you trying to be funny following this grammatical error with a line about your great Aussie education? Because I'm totally cracking up right now.

Now you're just trying to be petty. I teach grammar every frigging day for hours. I don't need lessons in it from someone trying for cheap shots.

Grow up and engage properly. Stop treating this as some kind of pissing contest.

Engage, damn you! ENGAGE!

Ahem, yes enough with this troll nonsense, army. It's such a damn silly insult.

quote:

Originally posted by Kulturtrager:
Oh army, what a pathetic response. Scansion is the most common of words used in discussing lyrics.

Let's be fair now. Scansion is used when discussing POETIC lyrics.

Rock lyrics, on the other hand, are a whole other bag, and we all know it.

Chamberk, scansion is indeed used in discussing song lyrics.
Jimmy Webb, for one talks about it all the time.

Trying to paint me as pretentious sadly backfires.
I genuinely have a problem with the way a lot of modern songwriters write words in terms of rhythm and syllable stress. It's only natural that I would use such a word, in addressing the topic.
Rather than getting all your petticoats in a bunch over a poster using a word that makes you go scatting off on what a twit this guy must be, try accepting that the word itself is used in the context of which we speak, and always has been, and lets get into a good debate over the beauty of word craft.

Although, I gotta admit, I'm getting tired of the pettiness, my holidays are over and I'm not getting anywhere it seems.

quote:

Originally posted by Kulturtrager:

Trying to paint me as pretentious sadly backfires.

Explain how. All I'm seeing is lolz.

what?

Wait a second...you're really arguing about the scansion a rock band uses, Ish? Please tell me, in the name of all that is holy, that you don't actually think about this kind of stuff when you're listening to a record. What about just enjoying it?

Maybe it would be helpful if you actually gave us an example of this awful scansion.

I get the impression that you're really complaining about "meter", which admittedly Finn is one of the few rock lyricists that approaches his lyrics using a free verse style. Especially in his earlier work, the lyrics rarely use a conventional metric pattern and often don't even rhyme. To me, this is one of the things makes his stuff so damn interesting.

Another thing is his literary approach to lyrics. His work in Lifter Puller is a great example of this. Over the course of three albums, he creates a whole universe with fictional characters, places, and events. In the song "Star Wars Hips" on their first album, he asks Juanita if she "heard about the nightclub fires". In the last song on their last album, "The Flex and the Buff Result", he recounts a conversation in which Eye-patch Guy tells him to burn down the nightclub and kill Nightclub Dwight.

That's awesome scope. It's not just a concept album, it's a concept discography.

Finn does this all the time. In "Slapped Actress" on Stay Positive, Finn sings, "Don't tell them Ybor City almost killed us again." That references the events of "Killer Parties" on their first album, Almost Killed Me. "Ybor City is tres speedy but they throw such killer parties. Killer parties almost killed me." "Killer Parties" also marks the first appearance of the pimp Charlemagne, who playes a bigger role on the Hold Steady's second album, Seperation Sunday.

quote:

Originally posted by EricG75:

"Killer Parties" also marks the first appearance of the pimp Charlemagne, who playes a bigger role on the Hold Steady's second album, Seperation Sunday.

Whatever happened to Charlemagne?

posted by sans success

quote:

Wait a second...you're really arguing about the scansion a rock band uses, Ish? Please tell me, in the name of all that is holy, that you don't actually think about this kind of stuff when you're listening to a record. What about just enjoying it?

That's a really enlightening point you make sans. I suddenly get now the listening experience filtered through your mind, and probably the mind of most of the other posters on these forums.
Because, yes; I do think about scansion, the meter and the syllables, the rhythm and the placement of words against each other when I listen to music.
If a writer is trying to do more than spoon, june, moon, as Finn is, I listen very carefully, and pick the bloody thing to pieces.
I guess that puts me in some weird nerd category to you guys perhaps, but it comes from years of working with musicians, writing lyrics for them and fixing their own efforts.

Eric, meter is part of scansion, so yes, I am talking about meter in a rough way, and I appreciate your obvious love for the band.

But I'm still not swayed. It's fun to notice that Finn keeps a character thread going through his songs, and that he tries to mess with a freer approach to meter, but it doesn't win me on the ground.

I don't wanna go into this any further cause it's obviously a touchy subject, and I leave for home tomorrow, where I will be doing anything but sit at a computer in my splendid two weeks.

So, enjoy the band guys. I hope you will allow me the freedom to continue being the crank in the corner.

quote:

Originally posted by sans_success:
Whatever happened to Charlemagne?

According to Almost Killed Me outtake "Curves and Nerves", Charlemagne was killed by a hoodrat chick, most likely Holly. In two other songs, "Killer Parties" and "Don't Let Me Explode", they say to "smile polite and say something vague" if asked about Charlemagne.

I've heard some theories that the murder that occurs on Stay Positive is Charlemagne's, although his name is never mentioned.

quote:

Originally posted by Kulturtrager:
Eric, meter is part of scansion, so yes, I am talking about meter in a rough way

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about poets like T.S. Eliot and Walt Whitman who abandon the metered verse? Are they also guilty of shitty scansion?

Oh dear. I have absolutely no problem with unmetered verse. I love poetry dearly, of all breeds.

I do have a problem though with awkwardly phrased pop lyrics, whatever the meter.

Seriously, you don't need my approval to enjoy the band. Go ahead, knock yourself out.
You clearly have some personal problem with me; you are moving away from the core argument to have a dig. I'm not gonna bite anymore.