Major debate between my friends and I.

Indie Rock: Type of label, or style of music?

Good question, Gender Bombs.

I'm inclined to say type of label because otherwise it is a style that is being applied far too broadly to too wide a variety of bands. I also find that an easy rule of thumb when it comes to moderating the forums.

Of course, that become problematic for bands like Death Cab for Cutie and Rilo Kiley that have made the move to one of the majors, but all "labels" (so to speak...I missed my own pun the first time around) are less than perfect.

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: LinnTate,

of course it is a label "Independant".

I dont know of any music that could be considered independant.

I think the word "indie rock" is used in two different ways. One way it is used it to describe a certain type of rock music that is generally abrasive and usually doesn't appeal to casual music fans: Modest Mouse, Dismemberment Plan, Guided By Voices, etc.

Other times "indie rock" is used just to mean bands that are not popular and are on independent labels. Obviously, this is more vague and can describe just about any kind of music, including stuff that is indistinguishable from what is being played on the radio.

quote:

I dont know of any music that could be considered independant.

What do you mean by that, Imprezu?

'Indie' technically is supposed to mean 'Released on a smaller independent label'.

But it's turned into a description of a style of music because there are certain kinds of sounds that only show up in independent music, and show up a lot.

I have always thought of Indie rock in terms of the style of music, not the size of the label. Indie music to me has always been characterized by tenored/falsetto-young guys with not-too-elaborate production and catchy melodies.

quote:

Originally posted by RavingLunatic:

quote:

I dont know of any music that could be considered independant.

What do you mean by that, Imprezu?

What i mean is when music is hard to find or local.That is what it is...it is undergroung or local or whatever.There is independant music i guess...but that would jump into the making of music.Maybe a solo artist who is by him or herself.

Indie is short for independant.That is obvious enough.I have never heara anyone categorize a type or style of music as indie.Othewrwise it could be anything...i say indie rap or indie rockall the time.In reference to a band or rapper who is on an independant label.They or he has the freedom to make an album that they want to.Unlike a major label where everything has to be approved and u are jumping through so many hoops u eventually trip and fall.

Otherwise the Britneys and timberlakes should be called major-pop or something like that...or should we just stick to shitty-pop.It just seems stupid all the categories thses days for artists and bands.It becoms more confusing than helping.

I would agree with Raving in that the term has two different uses. I also think bob is right in that the usage became common in the early to mid 1980's when the Brits started keeping separate charts for the punk, postpunk, jangle pop, and other subsversive music of the day.

I think indie rock is more commonly used now in the way paxsoprano uses it...as a style of music, inconsequential to what label it's on. I think the crush of formerly "indie" artists who moved to major (read: non-indie) labels in the mid to late 80's in the US led to the change in usage.

Although we use them differently on these boards, I think "indie" and "alternative" were used roughly the same until the alternative boom in the 80's and 90's. Now, alternative is a label for indie music on a larger label, usually a major or a subsidiary of one, or one that is widely distributed by one.

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Originally posted by philosopherEric:
Although we use them differently on these boards, I think "indie" and "alternative" were used roughly the same until the alternative boom in the 80's and 90's. Now, alternative is a label for indie music on a larger label, usually a major or a subsidiary of one, or one that is widely distributed by one.

Yes. I think that's a good way of putting it.

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I am going to answer in some kind of historical context which I don't believe this thread actually refers to, but it seems like a good place to put my ramblings.

In 1976/1977 every non-mainstream recording artist who was "new" was referred to as "Punk". The critics took them to heart as a breath of fresh air and punk was born. As far as I recall, there was no music referred to as punk in the 60s or early 70s. It's only called that now. The original "punkers" included such diverse bands as Sex Pistols, Elvis Costello, Talking Heads, Clash, Television, Ramones, Graham Parker, Jam, Nick Lowe, Richard Hell and the Voidoids, etc.

A few years later, critics and listeners seemed to determine that most bands weren't really punk and the term "new wave" kicked in. Bands such as the Pretenders, Knack, Vapors, 20/20, Feelies, X, Cure, XTC became new-wave, as well as a batch of synthy-type bands. I'll guarantee you that I could go to the record store in 1980 and find most of the albums I wanted in the New Wave section.

Around the early/mid 80s, new wave was passe, and alternative actually became known as a "field" of music, whether it was a genre or fad, etc., you decide. Bands such as R.E.M., Big Country, Smiths, Camper van Beethoven, etc, were alternative, but it wasn't nearly as widely used as it was in the later 80s with the Pixies, Nirvana, etc. Yeah, some bands were grunge, but EVERY grunge band was alternative. The weird thing about what was going on in the 80s/early 90s was that alternative wasn't especially being pushed as a commercial phenomenon.

Alternative became a commercial behemoth about the time Radiohead showed up on the scene. Radio stations, such as KROQ in LA began championing punk in 1977, then new wave about 1979, alternative was actually used on the station and my own record store Music Market in 1983, but I don't remember seeing it as a "genre" device at a record store chain until about five years later.

In retrospect, CVB may have been one of the first "indie" bands, at least before they went "major" with their last two albums way back before the new one came out last year.

Indie/Alternative now seem to be almost interchangeable except for the amount of money involved. Neither one is generally too commercial, but they are both so vague as to encompass almost the complete spectrum of "almost" all "non-commercial" rockish music.

I apologize if this is completely off-topic.

So Mark F, are you saying that any rock music under-the-radar that may garner critical praise but is not embraced by MTV or Top 40 radio is "indie"?

No, not specifically, because Nirvana was a megaseller, and at various times, R.E.M, the Smiths and many of the bands I mentioned were somewhere in the Top 40. After the Clash had graduated from punk to new wave, they had some top 40 hits ("Rock the Casbah", "Should I Stay or Should I Go?") If you research this and find I'm wrong, OK, but I stopped listening to "mainstream radio" about 1978.

Actually, now that I think about it, I would make comparisons between indie and singer/songwriter.

Here are the qualifications I associate with indie:
-Simple production
-Songwriting oriented
-Expresses emotion and the personality(ies) of the performer(s)
-Gives me the feeling that they care more about writing good music than making millions of dollars
-Falls under the umbrella term 'rock'.

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Originally posted by Bobthespirit:
Actually, now that I think about it, I would make comparisons between indie and singer/songwriter.

That is spushing it.

Remember folks indie does not just mean rock.There is a ton of indie rap and electronic artists out there.

So if u are specifically speaking of rock...say so.Because none of what most of you are saying has anything to do with any genre besides rock?

Well, 'indie electronic' and 'indie rap' are used in a completely different way than 'indie rock'. I guess what I'm talking about is 'indie rock', because the other two would have completely different and barely related classifications.

Mark f, I was talking about more modern stuff...for instance by your definition one could call a band like Deerhoof "indie" simply because it garners critical praise but is not in the mainstream's conciousness, except I don't think I would call Deerhoof indie because it doesn't have that certain sound characterized by simple production and increased attention to melody.

However, when I think of "electronic indie" or "indie rap" I automatically think of any rap/electronica that is out of the mainstream...I'm not sure why I make this distinction, I guess just because I'm more familiar with rock and I'm able to pigeon-hole different sounds easier.

Interesting distinctions pax, but since each of us here has arbitrarily made up their own "definitions" you can understand why "Debate" is a good name for this topic.

This may be mixing apples and oranges, but what about indie films? Are they related to indie music in any way as far as style, financial backing, monetary gain, artistic freedom? To me, indie connotes artistic independence. You know, freedom from "Sweetie's" chasing after the big bucks.

It's a bit of both, really. Many bands that are still given the title of "indie" are, in fact, currently recording on major (or at least semi-major) labels, so I believe that it has something to do with aesthetics.

Modern-day "alternative rock", though, is generally just rather calculated pop music aimed at certain people who actually buy their "edgy", "anti-establishment" lyrics (eg. Rage Against the Machine, System of a Down).

Just my $0.02.

With Modest Mouse selling out and The Strokes and Franz Ferdinan topping the charts, Indie is dying. I dont think there's a way to dress indie or talk indie, and the only reason theres even an indie sound is because of the early indie bands. Nowa'days it seems the only real indie is indie rap (MF Doom, Quasimoto, even De La Soul) who even proclaim in their songs how they'd rather stay indie. Now that's what I'm talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by mark f:
I am going to answer in some kind of historical context which I don't believe this thread actually refers to, but it seems like a good place to put my ramblings.

Actually I think historical context is a good idea.

quote:

Originally posted by mark f:
As far as I recall, there was no music referred to as punk in the 60s or early 70s.

I don't have the exact citation in front of me, but I believe Dave Marsh coined the term "punk rock" in 1971 in reference to ? and the Mysterians, which should serve to show just how much that definition has changed and evolved over the years.

As an addendum to your excellent survey of the some the crucial early punks, it's further worth noting that punk's roots include a variety of bands that are lumped under the moniker "garage rock," which was a mid-60s phenomenon. As has been noted elsewhere, that terms has been recycled/revisted for the 90s and 00s with the White Sripes among many, many others.

In all, I think mark's survey is the best overall explanation so far of how we've reached the term "indie." In my own mind the rough (very rough) evolution follows:

garage-->power pop-->pub rock-->punk-->new wave-->alternative-->indie

All of which are only over-arching terms for a dizzying array of sub-sub genres, which ten years from now will fall under pithy terms that have yet to be coined.

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