quote:

Originally posted by L. R. William Spencer:
I was just thinking about how to break this logjam, and I decided that people on each side of the discussion should list the aspects of VU's (or any band's) music that they rate highly. We should be debating the building blocks of their art. I am in no position to start, as I know very little about VU, but will a fan (or critic) of VU start if off? What part of their music do you like/not like?

Maybe we should start a VU thread and get back to listing classic indie albums here instead.

A classic is an album that is widely viewed as such, not necessarily a personal favorite (I haven't heard all of these myself). Making no distinction between indie and alternative, here are some off the top of my mind that seem to be generally regarded as classics amongst the indie crowd (alphabetically by decade).

1980s:
Closer - Joy Division
Daydream Nation - Sonic Youth
Doolittle - Pixies
Let It Be - The Replacements
Murmur - R.E.M.
Remain In Light - Talking Heads
Treasure - Cocteau Twins
You're Living All Over Me - Dinosaur Jr.

1990s:
Bee Thousand - Guided By Voices
Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain - Pavement
I Can Hear The Heart Beating As One - Yo La Tengo
In The Aeroplane Over The Sea - Neutral Milk Hotel
Loveless - My Bloody Valentine
OK Computer - Radiohead
Slanted And Enchanted - Pavement
The Soft Bulletin - The Flaming Lips

2000s:
Agaetis Byrjun - Sigur Ros
Elephant - The White Stripes
Funeral - The Arcade Fire
Illinois - Sufjan Stevens
Is This It? - The Strokes
Kid A - Radiohead
The Moon & Antarctica - Modest Mouse
Turn On The Bright Lights - Interpol
Yankee Hotel Foxtrot - Wilco

now THAT is a list.

I agree, it's a good list, but I do have a question for SDF.

Name one accomplishment, musical innovation, or just any element that makes The WS original in any way, shape, or form that makes Elephant a classic.

quote:

Originally posted by slipdream:
Name one accomplishment, musical innovation, or just any element that makes The WS original in any way, shape, or form that makes Elephant a classic.

I'd say their accomplishment is making an extremely solid rock album.

Stylisticly, are the White Stripes 100% original? No. But if that's your only criteria for a good album, you're missing out on a lot of quality music.

Any album which will unite enough listeners, who have no reason to be united (whether by age, geography, job, education, experience, or whatever), may be considered a "classic". A "classic" doesn't respect time, place or fashion. The WS can certainly put out a classic or two, at least if we believe in "independence".

slipdream, I understand that this means nothing to you, but I have absolutely no concern or opinion about that VU band which I heard when I was all so young. They are certainly not one of my fave bands, so imagine my surprise when you know everything about me, based on a few comments about later bands. As everyone else said, and I was the first, you are VERY WELCOME here. Just meet us half-way. Don't pretend (because you're wrong, Bro), that you understand us more than we do you!!

Share with us. Once we accept you, you can start that preachin' which I occasionally do and get no response from.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mark f,

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:

quote:

Originally posted by slipdream:
Name one accomplishment, musical innovation, or just any element that makes The WS original in any way, shape, or form that makes Elephant a classic.

I'd say their accomplishment is making an extremely solid rock album.

Stylisticly, are the White Stripes 100% original? No. But if that's your only criteria for a good album, you're missing out on a lot of quality music.

What if they aren't even 1% original?

What other blues rock 'n' roll band has a female drummer and a male singer/songwriter/guitarist? I think you've already pushed the WS past 1% right there...

quote:

Originally posted by mark f:
What other blues rock 'n' roll band has a female drummer and a male singer/songwriter/guitarist? I think you've already pushed the WS past 1% right there...

I think WS are all right, but I don't think the gender of the drummer is even remotely important. As for originality, I think it is somewhere between 1 and 100%... but probably closer to 1.

I agree. Why would the combined characteristics of being a rock'n'roll band and having a female drummer make a band any more credible?

Why a crappy duo that plays stripped-down, primitive, regurgitated 60's rock'n'roll would make a "classic indie rock album" list is utterly baffling.

Listen to an album like Loveless that was produced in the studio to perfection and where attention was paid to every detail and used complex layers of sound and changed music.

And then turn on some White Stripes album immediately after. After such a jarring contrast you'll see what I'm talking about when I mention things like intensity and passion for music.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: slipdream,

quote:

Originally posted by slipdream:
And then turn on some White Stripes album immediately after. After such a jarring contrast you'll see what I'm talking about when I mention things like intensity and passion for music.

For me, the simplicity of the WS is part of the appeal. They take rock down to it's basic componants and create a raw, powerful sound that's absent in much of rock today.

In my opinion, just because music is complex, it's not necessarily good. And this is a musician talking. I find the worst song on Elephant far more enjoyable than anything on Loveless.

And yes, I've heard Loveless. I own it. And I really don't see what all the fuss is about. Unless your only criteria for a good album is a bunch of indistinguishable mid-tempo songs layered to the brim with squealing guitar noises, it's not that impressive. If you want to talk overrated, that album should be at the top of the list.

I'm not even a fan of the white stripes. however, if originality is the only thing you're going to point to in regarding it as "a classic" indie album, then i think that's a little unfair. I mean, US Maple is an incredibly original band, and while i like them a lot, i wouldn't call anything they've done "classic."

also, other groups up on SDF's list (btw, i think it's a pretty solid list....i'll add a couple more below) aren't any more original than the white stripes. namely, the strokes' is this it? and interpol's turn on the bright lights. i think they can still be considered indie classics without being all that original.

the reason why the white stripes, IMO, should be included in this discussion is the same reason why the strokes are included.....as much as they may lack in originality, they did bring more appeal to the indie genre. this is very needed, as we were stuck in the whole boy band and party rap era. so, that alone could lend some support for their being considered indie classics.

alright, i have two albums to add to SDF's list (and both are from the 90's). i hope you all agree (i don't want another fight!!!!):

Emergency and I - Dismemberment Plan
The Richard D. James Album - Aphex Twin

Wow, I guess I am an indie geek. I own, (not downloaded, have purchased) every record on that list, except for 'Treasure'.

I would agree with Eric in saying that 'Loveless' is a very overrated record. Of all the records on that list, it's definitely the one that I could do without. It just doesn't do anything for me.

I think it's an excellent list, but I would have to add "Meat Puppets II". Great album.

quote:

Originally posted by superabound:
Wow, I guess I am an indie geek. I own, (not downloaded, have purchased) every record on that list, except for 'Treasure'.

I would agree with Eric in saying that 'Loveless' is a very overrated record. Of all the records on that list, it's definitely the one that I could do without. It just doesn't do anything for me.

I think it's an excellent list, but I would have to add "Meat Puppets II". Great album.

Another Meat Puppets fan. I do believe you're the first I've ever come across.

I'm gonna alienate everyone by saying that I see nothing special about the White Stripes or My Bloody Valentine.

quote:

Originally posted by RavingLunatic:
I'm gonna alienate everyone by saying that I see nothing special about the White Stripes or My Bloody Valentine.

I actually agree, but I don't want to be confrontational about it.

quote:

Another Meat Puppets fan. I do believe you're the first I've ever come across.

Now you have met two.

Great band (at least for a few albums). I hear they are getting back together to record soon.

quote:

Originally posted by RavingLunatic:
I'm gonna alienate everyone by saying that I see nothing special about the White Stripes or My Bloody Valentine.

Ok with the former and WHAAA with the latter

Meat Puppets Rule Forever. Saw them a few times and they were always great. Up on the Sun is my fave, but I have no problems with any of it, whether it's the early noisy stuff, or the later ZZ Top stuff.

My list is far from comprehensive. I also left off The Queen Is Dead by The Smiths. I'm not a big fan of Morrissey, but that's a no-brainer. I do like Meat Puppets II as well, and it is definitely a classic.

Btw slipdream, according to my calculations, The White Stripes are at least 2.7% original.

quote:

Originally posted by slipdream:
Why a crappy duo that plays stripped-down, primitive, regurgitated 60's rock'n'roll would make a "classic indie rock album" list is utterly baffling.

Listen to an album like Loveless that was produced in the studio to perfection and where attention was paid to every detail and used complex layers of sound and changed music.

And then turn on some White Stripes album immediately after. After such a jarring contrast you'll see what I'm talking about when I mention things like intensity and passion for music.

I'm in agreement about the White Stripes. I don't get the appeal, although I think the implied expectation that new music should be wholly original might be a little too much. Variations on a theme, if the theme is good, can be enjoyable.

The White Stripes, aside from having a female drummer and a clever visual style, aren't doing anything I haven't heard before (the Flat Duo Jets had the guitar/drums duo thing going in the mid 80's with more of a retro rockabilly style) but if I liked what they were doing, it wouldn't be an issue. I don't. But I can't honestly say anything about their 'intensity' and 'passion for music.' From what i can tell, Jack White is both intense AND passionate about music.

Loveless is a pretty impressive musical creation, but I find it quite boring. I give Kevin Shields credit for his effort, but after a couple of tracks, I'm usually itching to hear something else.