I know you like Sonic Youth a lot. According to Allmusic.com, VU were a huge influence on them in terms of noise experimentation and such. It's not just bands that sound like VU that were influenced by them, but basically just about all alternative music can be traced back to their influence.

quote:

Originally posted by mark f:
I have a hard time believing that you can enjoy ANY music since it all seems to be some intellectual exercise, which, in my book, has nothing to do with the purpose of music.

Exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by slipdream:
You've never read any negative things about the V.U. by any music critics?! You need to start doing a little bit of research. The V.U.'s "huge impact" on rock music has been one of the most controversial and most talked-about discussions for quite a while.

I guess my attempt to be charitable to slipdream was misguided: it turns out, he knows everything there is to know about music and we don't. I'd be willing to bet you a little bit of research will show that almost every rock artist has a critic who derides them. Hell, there's a whole book on the subject: Kill Your Idols! Pick a sacred cow, and someone will slaughter it.

I rescind my earlier attempts to be nice. Since slipdream has carefully boxed and labelled everything that is music, all we can do is stand around and let him lecture us on his silly dichotomy between "rock" and "rock and roll." Personally, I'll go listen to Jesus and Mary Chain's "Some Candy Talking" and stare at a wall. It's more interesting than crackpot aestheticism.

I'm not trying to gang up on slipdream here, but seriously, slipdream, i couldn't disagree with you more on your opinions of velvet underground. velvet underground has had a HUGE impact on so much indie music. They way that they experimented with sounds and melodies was completely innovative.

maybe you need to listen to white light / white heat again. it is a crazy jumbled mess that is completely original. on top of that, it came out at the end of the 60's, before other bands like Can, Captain Beefheart, Brian Eno, etc started manipulating sounds and experimenting. so, to say that velvet underground isn't innovative is absurd, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by DCFan:
I'm not trying to gang up on slipdream here, but seriously, slipdream, i couldn't disagree with you more on your opinions of velvet underground. velvet underground has had a HUGE impact on so much indie music. They way that they experimented with sounds and melodies was completely innovative.

maybe you need to listen to white light / white heat again. it is a crazy jumbled mess that is completely original. on top of that, it came out at the end of the 60's, before other bands like Can, Captain Beefheart, Brian Eno, etc started manipulating sounds and experimenting. so, to say that velvet underground isn't innovative is absurd, IMO.

There's no reason to be charitable to slipstream anymore. It's not an opinion that they were innovative, it's fact. I mean listen to songs like Ocean and then listen to most shoegaze bands, listen to Sister Ray and then listen to most punk bands and Sonic Youth, listen to Can't Stand It and then listen to most New Wave acts, White Light/ White Heat I mean listen to Pixies, Pavement, God so much. To say that they weren't innovative is just absurd DCFan said. That doesn't mean they were good, I mean in my opinion they were the greatest band that ever existed, but I'm just making the point when it comes to their innovation. They invented the jangle, just remember that.

Again, I never said they had 0 innovations, I said they were overrated.

These "innovations" have been blown way out of proportion, to the point where people every where take it as absolute fact. (Like someone said here, "it's on allmusic.com, so it has to be true!")

Look, The V.U. were a decent band that made innovations. Just a very, very overrated band. It's not stone cold fact like some misguided individuals on this board believe.

And trust me, I've talked to many people in real life, in chatrooms, and on message boards that have shared my opinion that the V.U. is one of the most overrated bands of all time.

Just do a google search for "velvet underground"+overrated and I'm sure you'll get quite a few hits. (Not that that proves that they do, I'm just pointing out what I'm saying isn't that abnormal.)

quote:

Originally posted by brighteyes215:
They invented the jangle, just remember that.

I'm not arguing here. I just wanted a clarification of the last sentence above. Are you talking about the Rickenbacker jangle sound the Byrds made popular in 1965 or some other jangle?

quote:

Originally posted by slipdream:
And trust me, I've talked to many people in real life, in chatrooms, and on message boards that have shared my opinion that the V.U. is one of the most overrated bands of all time.

Best comment ever.

np: "Femme Fatale" by The Velvet Underground

quote:

Originally posted by slipdream:
Again, I never said they had 0 innovations, I said they were overrated.

These "innovations" have been blown way out of proportion, to the point where people every where take it as absolute fact. (Like someone said here, "it's on allmusic.com, so it has to be true!")

Look, The V.U. were a decent band that made innovations. Just a very, very overrated band. It's not stone cold fact like some misguided individuals on this board believe.

And trust me, I've talked to many people in real life, in chatrooms, and on message boards that have shared my opinion that the V.U. is one of the most overrated bands of all time.

Just do a google search for "velvet underground"+overrated and I'm sure you'll get quite a few hits. (Not that that proves that they do, I'm just pointing out what I'm saying isn't that abnormal.)

Slipdream, you're either having a very good time causing chaos or you're being reminded of high school when all the bullies shoved you into your locker and gave you swirlies.

quote:

Originally posted by mark f:

quote:

Originally posted by brighteyes215:
They invented the jangle, just remember that.

I'm not arguing here. I just wanted a clarification of the last sentence above. Are you talking about the Rickenbacker jangle sound the Byrds made popular in 1965 or some other jangle?

Well I refer to the jangle or "galloping" guitar sound featured on such songs as White Light/White Heat, Idk if it's the same one as the Byrds as I'm not familiar with their music. Apologies if I overstated my case.

quote:

Originally posted by L. R. William Spencer:
Slipdream, you're either having a very good time causing chaos or you're being reminded of high school when all the bullies shoved you into your locker and gave you swirlies.

I've encountered V.U. debates on almost every indie forum/e-mail group I've ever been a part of. It certainly wasn't "chaotic" any of those times.

This seems like a very good board with knowledgable people, but I'm surprised that people are acting so shocked at the notion that the V.U. might be overrated.

These kind of forums are great for debates. And debates are great for discussing whether or not certain bands are underrated or overrated. People should be able to criticize any band, be they the Beatles, the V.U., or yes, even Sonic Youth.

Saying any of the 3 said bands had 0 influence on music would be ridiculous, but saying one of them is overrated is legitimate discussion. Whether or not a band is overrated is always subjective. It's always an opinion whether or not a band was as good as critics have made them out to be.

It's baffling to me that some members at a message board called "metacritic" would act like there are some bands that are exempt from being discussed, criticized, or questioned in any way, shape, or form.

I'll also point out that a member started a thread about SY being overrated, (again, a legitimate topic) but went on to say SY were not that innovative, were unimportant, just played random guitar strings at random times, and made up pseudo-meaningful lyrics. Yet no member got nearly as emotional as a few have on this thread.

Of course, most members that have replied did so intelligently, and actually discussed the topic at hand (mentioning such things as sonic experimentation).

A few (such as mark f), have said nothing about the V.U.'s music, but have instead just responded with defensive, emotional, angry posts.

I believe most of these members got so upset because I questioned some long-held belief (such as the V.U. being the best, most innovative rock band ever), and they simply feel threatened.

Notice MarkF first replied very calmly and intelligently to my post about SY (one that was probably a little too mean, too), but only got upset after I called Wilco and BRMC overrated.

Mark F, I have no doubt that you are a knowledgable music listener, and I know you've been listening to great indie music for a long time. But try not to get so worked up when some new member comes in and says one of your precious bands are overrated.

It happens in musical discussion, and (I would think) it happens a lot on this forum, being that it is called metacritic.

quote:

Originally posted by slipdream:

To top it off, the band’s lyrics were horrible—mostly your standard, clichéd sex, drugs, and rock ‘n roll lyrics.

"I'll be your mirror
Reflect what you are, in case you dont know
I'll be the wind, the rain and the sunset
The light on your door to show that you're home

When you think the night has seen your mind
That inside you're twisted and unkind
Let me stand to show that you are blind
Please put down your hands
cause I see you

I find it hard to believe you don't know
The beauty that you are
But if you don't let me be your eyes
A hand in your darkness, so you won't be afraid

When you think the night has seen your mind
That inside youre twisted and unkind
Let me stand to show that you are blind
Please put down your hands
cause I see you

I'll be your mirror"

-The Velvet Underground (1967)

quote:

I'll also point out that a member started a thread about SY being overrated, (again, a legitimate topic) but went on to say SY were not that innovative, were unimportant, just played random guitar strings at random times, and made up pseudo-meaningful lyrics. Yet no member got nearly as emotional as a few have on this thread.

This should tip you off that it isn't the content of your posts but the tone that people are responding to. When people try to discuss stuff here without being condescending, the other members respond in kind, and some interesting conversation can occur. Take as additional evidence the fact that we've already had other discussions on the VU being overrated, with lots of people coming down on both sides of the issue, without any of the annoyance that this thread has caused.

People are not responding poorly to you because you are challenging their beliefs about what the role of art should be, or whatever you think you are doing, but because you continue to post as if you have a personal connection to the one right answer to all aesthetic questions.

Candy says I've come to hate my body
and all that it requires in this world
Candy says I'd like to know completely
what others so discretely talk about

Candy says I hate the quiet places
that cause the smallest taste of what will be
Candy says I hate the big decisions
that cause endless revisions in my mind

I'm gonna watch the blue birds fly over my shoulder
I'm gonna watch them pass me by
Maybe when I'm older
What do you think I'd see
If I could walk away from me

Candy Says- VU

Stephanie says
that she wants to know
Why she's given half her life
to people she hates now

Stephanie says (Stephanie says)
when answering the phone (answering the phone)
What country shall I say is calling
from across the world

But she's not afraid to die
the people all call her Alaska
Between worlds so the people ask her
'Cause it's all in her mind
it's all in her mind

Stephanie says (Stephanie says)
that she wants to know (she wants to know)
Why it is though she's the door
she can't leave the room

Stephanie says (Stephanie says)
but doesn't hang up the phone (hang up the phone)
What sea shell say is calling
from across the world

But she's not afraid to die
the people all call her Alaska
Between worlds so the people ask her
'Cause it's all in her mind
it's all in her mind

They're asking is it good or bad
It's such an icy feeling

It's so cold in Alaska (Stephanie says)
it's so cold in Alaska (Stephanie says)
It's so cold in Alaska (Stephanie says)

Stephanie Says- VU


Sometimes I feel so happy,
Sometimes I feel so sad.
Sometimes I feel so happy,
But mostly you just make me mad.
Baby, you just make me mad.
Linger on, your pale blue eyes.
Linger on, your pale blue eyes.

Thought of you as my mountain top,
Thought of you as my peak.
Thought of you as everything,
I've had but couldn't keep.
I've had but couldn't keep.
Linger on, your pale blue eyes.
Linger on, your pale blue eyes.

If I could make the world as pure and strange as what I see,
I'd put you in the mirror,
I put in front of me.
I put in front of me.
Linger on, your pale blue eyes.
Linger on, your pale blue eyes.

Skip a life completely.
Stuff it in a cup.
She said, Money is like us in time,
It lies, but can't stand up.
Down for you is up."
Linger on, your pale blue eyes.
Linger on, your pale blue eyes.

It was good what we did yesterday.
And I'd do it once again.
The fact that you are married,
Only proves, you're my best friend.
But it's truly, truly a sin.
Linger on, your pale blue eyes.
Linger on, your pale blue eyes

Pale Blue Eyes- VU

To further illustrate lyrical brilliance

quote:

Originally posted by slipdream:
It's baffling to me that some members at a message board called "metacritic" would act like there are some bands that are exempt from being discussed, criticized, or questioned in any way, shape, or form.

I have no problem with you saying VU or any other band is overrated. The problem is the way you've stated your case. You've presented your opinions as fact, and that others who disagree are less informed than you are. The only thing that bothered me about your VU stance, was that you spoke as though you knew their intention in making music (to be bland and unambitious). Maybe VU are overrated to a degree. I don't know. There are a lot of bands/artists that seem to be immune from criticism and it shouldn't be that way. That being said, I agree with your statement above.

I'm with SDF. I rarely think highly of the bands that are talked about in the most-overrated threads (SY, VU, etc.), I just care about how arguments are made.

quote:

Originally posted by L. R. William Spencer:
I'm with SDF. I rarely think highly of the bands that are talked about in the most-overrated threads (SY, VU, etc.), I just care about how arguments are made.

Yeah, and some of the 'arguments' presented by slipdream include:

1. A lot of other people he's talked to in chatrooms think they are overrated

2. A Google search for VU+Overrated verifies his position.

If you offered those 'arguments' after week four of my Intro to Logic and Critical Thinking class, I'm pretty sure even the students who had been sleeping would see how fallacious they are.

I personally don't care for the Velvet Underground, myself. I like some songs, but I think they're not that interesting on the whole. Saying they're overrated is fair game. Saying they're uninfluential is just silly. I'm pretty sure that slipdream was going for the former, but other things he's said makes it sound like the latter.

Eric, please read my posts more carefully.

I pointed out that people in other chatrooms and on google have said the V.U. was overrated just to try to defeat the notion that calling the V.U. overrated is an extremely rare discussion. Some people were acting like the V.U. is never discussed as being overrated by anyone, and that I was just doing it to gain attention, cause chaos, and be "different."

I certainly agree with you that just because other people say they are overrated does not make it so. (Just like critics saying they are the best band of all time also does not make it so.)

I said multiple times that the V.U. definitely were influential, influencing such bands as Galaxie 500, Luna, JMC, BRMC, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by slipdream:
Again, I never said they had 0 innovations, I said they were overrated.

These "innovations" have been blown way out of proportion, to the point where people every where take it as absolute fact. (Like someone said here, "it's on allmusic.com, so it has to be true!")

Look, The V.U. were a decent band that made innovations. Just a very, very overrated band. It's not stone cold fact like some misguided individuals on this board believe.

And trust me, I've talked to many people in real life, in chatrooms, and on message boards that have shared my opinion that the V.U. is one of the most overrated bands of all time.

Just do a google search for "velvet underground"+overrated and I'm sure you'll get quite a few hits. (Not that that proves that they do, I'm just pointing out what I'm saying isn't that abnormal.)

I'm reading your post quite carefully, and what i see is you providing anecdotal evidence (from your experience in chatrooms and from Google) for your argument, which is that the VU is overrated. I would take both with a serious grain of salt, considering that chatrooms are quite often filled with people who are talking out of their asses, and many of the Google hits I've found were to chatrooms and discussion boards. Your main point, you claim, is merely to point out that other people have said the VU were overrated. Great. I'm pretty sure that you can make that claim for ANY band, so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to gain from your assertion. You've proven what seems to be something trivally true: someone, somewhere, is always willing to crap on any band. Build into what you've said here some of the other things you've said elsewhere, and I'm getting a stronger claim that "people have called the VU overrated before": I get "people who really UNDERSTAND music, as I do, know the VU were merely a 'purposefully bland and average' band and would not like them and/or give them credit beyond a certain minimal degree."

You mentioned, up the page, that these kinds of places were good for debates, but then you seem shocked that people don't like when you try to slaughter a sacred cow. For my money, you set yourself up to fail by having a very personal musical hierarchy which you seem to find to be authoritative, and then you get frustrated when people don't understand it. Your "rock/rock and roll" system means nothing to me, and if your assessment of music is based on it, your not going to get much uptake from those who don't get it or agree with it. That's not debate: it's you, pronouncing your authoritative position from on high, and then acting surprised when people don't agree. Calling a band "purposefully bland and average" doesn't sound like an invitation to debate that band's merits...it sounds like a final pronouncement. Why bother debating? We know you've got it all figured out. keylimetrev pointed it out well above: it's not WHAT you're saying, it's the WAY you say it that makes people react the way they do. You come off not as someone who likes debate, but as someone who intends to show us how much smarter you are then the rest of us.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: philosopherEric,

I was just thinking about how to break this logjam, and I decided that people on each side of the discussion should list the aspects of VU's (or any band's) music that they rate highly. We should be debating the building blocks of their art. I am in no position to start, as I know very little about VU, but will a fan (or critic) of VU start if off? What part of their music do you like/not like?