quote:

Originally posted by LinnTate:

quote:

Originally posted by L. R. William Spencer:
And get a few more posts before doing so, at the very least.

We don't rate people's contributions by the number of posts around here.

Now Playing: The Daily Source Code

Let me qualify what I said, because I feel as though my meaning was misinterpreted. What I meant to say was that Rockalypse should wait a while before being so definitively critical. I'm quite sure that if I went back to my first few posts, I'd find some hasty, stupid, agressive posts that I don't find to be true at this point.

I think that it is important to take in others' opinions here before making conclusions. If I had to do it again, I'd make my first 20 or so posts questions and things like that... because I've discovered that I can learn a lot from the other people.

In no way am I saying that attacks are more valid or reasonable when coming from a Guru or a Jedi or whatever. I am merely saying that if Rockalypse waited a little while and took the time to learn from all the more experienced users (more experienced than me, as well) he might not feel the same way.

Sorry if anyone misunderstood what I was saying.

I agree with everybody. Now, let's see...who do I think is overrated? Wait a minute. You mean critically overrated? I don't personally care about "critics". You mean too popular? Ditto. You mean overhyped? I never pay attention.

I imagine that there are several bands "I don't get" or don't enjoy listening to, but are they overrated? I don't think about that stuff too much. I just enjoy or ignore, probably. Now, if somebody wants to pay me money to expound in colorful BS-terms what I think of specific songs, albums and artists, I might do it, but I would never sell my soul. Yep. I still have mine!

quote:

Originally posted by mark f:
I agree with everybody. Now, let's see...who do I think is overrated? Wait a minute. You mean critically overrated? I don't personally care about "critics". You mean too popular? Ditto. You mean overhyped? I never pay attention.

I imagine that there are several bands "I don't get" or don't enjoy listening to, but are they overrated? I don't think about that stuff too much. I just enjoy or ignore, probably. Now, if somebody wants to pay me money to expound in colorful BS-terms what I think of specific songs, albums and artists, I might do it, but I would never sell my soul. Yep. I still have mine!

mark f, you're so cool.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sicnarf,

quote:

Originally posted by L. R. William Spencer:

quote:

Originally posted by vitunkrapula:

quote:

Still, there is often a pattern of style over substance in most forms of music that's a bit bloated and overrated today though. It's rampant in mainstream music and becoming more and more prevalent in independant music as well.

I'm not sure how you're judging that this trend is becoming more prevalent. When was style less of an issue for the popularity of music as you see it?

Vitunkrapula is right. Style and music have been inextricably linked for a very long time. The fifties, with cars, music, drive-ins, etc., the seventies with hippie dress and drugs, the nineties with grunge and hip-hop...

And I really don't see a problem with that.

Personally, I listen to music that pleases my ear and my mind. That's it. I don't give a second thought to the "look" or "style" of a band. That's why I have no more problem listening to the raging and angry hardcore of Black Flag than I do the "precious" and "baroque" indie-pop of Sufjan Stevens.

But I still find it funny to chill with my friends while listening to the Notorious BIG and shout out the choice lines (N****, I'm getting high, getting head on the beach!) and reveling in the fact that I am a skinny white loser...

Basically my point is that music can serve whatever purpose you want it to: to make you look or feel cool, to stimulate your mind, to make you feel happy, sad, or introspective, or to find common bonds with people that have similar tastes. Just sit back, man, and enjoy it.

And if you still want to judge other people's musical taste, then please do so quietly and (sorry for saying this) shut the fuck up.

And get a few more posts before doing so, at the very least.

Okay, I gotta ask...why are you jumping on my ass fella? Seems to be something a little deeper there than what you're letting on. I came into this thread a month or two late, after several pages where a quite a few people had been essentially judging musical tastes/trends whatever and did the same. Criticism of other people's tastes is not something I do often, but that's sorta what this thread was about. No?

There were some groups/bands I liked that got railed a little bit, yet I didn't get offended. Just disagreed.

After 14 years or so of listening primarily to indie music, there has been kind of a noticeable shift in the last six or so years over what's garnering the most attention; style over substance has become a more prominent trend in indie music. Yes, it's been that way a long time in mainstream music, but I wasn't referring to it in this instance. If that doesn't bother you, that's totally cool. I'm not exactly losing sleep about it. I'll always listen to what I like, regardless. It does and has significantly effected some aspects of indie music if you've been a fan of it though. I don't often discuss what I or other people listen to musically at all, as most of my friends and I have different tastes, so I guess when I came across this thread in a search I unleashed some things that had been brewin' in the back of my mind for a while.

Sorry if you took offense, but my advice would be to grow some thicker skin. Criticism; acknowledging the differences in individual taste is important in my opinion. It keeps things interesting. Rarely can that always come off as completely positive or even neutral. Hell, I may be mistaken, but you seem to be criticising my opinion/comments fairly heavily here...with a lot more personal focus and attitude than I projected. I sure as hell don't presume my tastes or biases are universal or that anyone should even take them seriously to the point where they feel the need to tell me to "shut the fuck up".

As for the post count thing: try to keep in mind that people don't just spring into exsistence with their first post on a particular message forum.

quote:

After 14 years or so of listening primarily to indie music, there has been kind of a noticeable shift in the last six or so years over what's garnering the most attention; style over substance has become a more prominent trend in indie music. Yes, it's been that way a long time in mainstream music, but I wasn't referring to it in this instance.

OK, I think that is at least the beginning of an answer to my question. I almost agree, except as I see it this trend is a symptom of indie going mainstream. That sounds like a paradox. But it isn't, because the indie of today need not be obscure and completely outside everything else. Unlike the indie of the past, where the definition at least seemed to carry outsider-ism (huh?) as a pre-req.

Well I mean I think the question that determines how one approaches this forum is this: What does the word overrated imply? I mean is it overrated commercially, critically, societally, socially etc. And it can also be all of those at once. But I mean if you look at it from a standpoint of why is it overrated in certain circles or socially then one would have to approach the issue from why they think those circles like the music. I mean it's all nice and well for us to believe that we are ALL individuals, but as the "hipster," "emo," "goth", whatever scene can attest there are some people out there who merely follow the set of guidelines that their group has and that includes music taste. And while I'm hesitant to believe that there are many people like this out there, I know some myself... and it's very frustrating to keep one's mouth shut about it all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by vitunkrapula:
OK, I think that is at least the beginning of an answer to my question. I almost agree, except as I see it this trend is a symptom of indie going mainstream. That sounds like a paradox. But it isn't, because the indie of today need not be obscure and completely outside everything else. Unlike the indie of the past, where the definition at least seemed to carry outsider-ism (huh?) as a pre-req.

Yeah, I think you may be right. I've been happy to see -- especially since the Internet became so commonplace -- how much interest and attention indie has gained in recent years. It seems to me though, that rather than it just being just an increased number of people looking for different music than what's being offered by majors these days, there are a growing number of people who have taken interest in it primarily for...shallow, flashy purposes. Which for me, seems to go against the whole damn point of indie music in the first place - at least as far as I was initially attracted to it.

The quality and creativity of the sounds used to be the main factor in whether a group of musicians receives a lot of hype, from fans, critics, show attendance, and all that other shit. Not mainly how cute(sy)/quirky/novel the group is, like how it's starting to seem today. It's lame the two have become inseperable, even in independant music and I guess maybe I just had the urge to express that. Apologies if I wewnt and ruffled any feathers in the process.

First off - no feathers ruffled here.

quote:

The quality and creativity of the sounds used to be the main factor in whether a group of musicians receives a lot of hype, from fans, critics, show attendance, and all that other shit.

I'd certainly hope that good, creative sound gets recognition, but I always get confused when people talk about how a certain musician 'deserves' backlash/hype more than others. How the hell can you tell who really deserves what? Sorry - that wasn't directed at you, Rockalypse - it's just something that confuses me with critics in general.

I mean, if music makes you want to jump up and down, by all means go for it, but when people go up and down the street praising this new musical messiah (no matter who it is) I get bothered. There seems to be this need to deify or vilify people. Maybe it's related to a human need for mythology?

Sorry - that was WAYYYY off topic. oh well

Actually, in a very vague way, it was right on topic.

There's this weird zoom out button in my brain, and I think my elbow was leaning on it the whole time I was typing that.

You can rest your elbow on your brain? That's some crazy double-jointed shit right there.

They tried to operate on me, but it didn't work. Maybe I'll get to be on the next Sigur Ros video.

I think this is my most un-PC post ever.

scorching

...Right.

Rockalypse I understand where you are coming from, and a few bands leap to my mind (Sufjan, Polyphonic Spree, Pipettes) but I was wondering what bands you specifically are referring to. I think the flash is coming with the new-found attention the music industry is getting thanks to the internet boom (myspace, iTunes, eMusic...Limewire), the MTV's of the world allow bands that no one would care about in the past (Silversun Pickup...) a mainstream chance. I think its just the natural evolution of indie music. You remember when alternative actually meant something? That's where indie is headed, for better or worse. Regardless, I'll be listening the whole way.

I'll be listening too, but I'll also still be on the lookout for music that falls through the cracks (as I'm sure there will still be music worth listening to that P4K and the other big media sources either won't cover or just won't like).

quote:

Originally posted by pak:
...Right.

Rockalypse I understand where you are coming from, and a few bands leap to my mind (Sufjan, Polyphonic Spree, Pipettes) but I was wondering what bands you specifically are referring to. I think the flash is coming with the new-found attention the music industry is getting thanks to the internet boom (myspace, iTunes, eMusic...Limewire), the MTV's of the world allow bands that no one would care about in the past (Silversun Pickup...) a mainstream chance. I think its just the natural evolution of indie music. You remember when alternative actually meant something? That's where indie is headed, for better or worse. Regardless, I'll be listening the whole way.

I'm speaking of groups like Aids Wolf: "edgy" band name, naked singer on cover of debut, and highly artsy. Good music? Hell no. That's not a matter of pure opinion either. If you have ears, their music sucks. Yet I'd bet most people into this kind of music are familiar with them.

Arctic Monkeys: Young strapping lads making a-typical British garage sounding music. The second coming of the Beatles! I blame NME for overhyping these fellas though. Their quote on MySpace: "Don't believe the hype..."

Art Brut: Seem from quotes and such like good, fun people, and a little art punk never hurt anyone, but is their music worthy of the abundance of hype and praise they've been getting? I don't think so.

Devendra Banheart: Already ranted enough about this one.

Then of course there was the onslaught of trembly, histrionic emo-2000 bands(Kind of Like Spitting, RockingHorse Winner, Thrice) that no one cares about now.

Prior to that, a swarm of math rock bands dominating the hype(Karate, June of 44, The Shipping News), and before that a slew of instrumental post-rock(Tortoise, Tristeza, Labradford) rolling in scenester attention.

It seems like a downward slope to me, unless I'm just becoming less easily amused as the years go by. Definitely a possibility.

Don't get me wrong, despite the harsh words, I'm not intentionally criticizing the bands themselves or suggesting they should have no attention. They're most likely just doing their thing. It's the critics and fans that generate and get caught up in overblown hype...allowing too much praise for acts that fit into modern trends or have a lot of style appeal.

Pak, I may have just fooled myself into thinking "indie" would manage to avoid the same slow, grizzly mutation and demise "alternative" before it did. You're right, it probably won't happen though, and perhaps we are witnessing the beginnings of it becoming the mainstream.

Definitely whatever indie represents today will continue to survive in one way or another either way, as there will always be people making great music that might not fit neatly with the demands of the modern mainstream music machine. Hopefully the good one's that are will be able to get the attention and rewards they deserve in the process too I guess.

There's this sequence of images that keeps flashing in the background of this discussion. Warning: this will probably end up as irrelevant as my earlier posts so feel free to skip.

1. Some people in unknown, undisclosed
location(s) catch lightning in a bottle. This flash is in the form of a sonic idea. Something to reach for in playing and recording.

2. They play music, and gradually people become aware of this and get excited.

3. There is some sort of common theme. It could be logical, illusory or simply because all of these people are making exciting music at the same time.

4. People keep getting excited. Perhaps too much so. It is sometime around this stage that a label is coined to describe this new exciting wave of music.

5. Over a period of time, the label is used so much that it gets worn out. It then becomes an official buzzword to be on display for the mass media flies. But alas, it is already dead. The mass media flies eat it up, until a new carcass is laid out on display to be devoured. In this final (or before the beginning stage, depending on how you want to look at it) stage, the label is finally assimilated into mainstream culture proper. Rinse and repeat.

huh - I said it was a series of images, but then when I wrote it it wasn't really images at all. The series of images I originally meant is: a star being born out of some nebulous Genesis-like darkness (In the Beginning), and then it turns into a supernova and blows up.

remember, most bands that any of us like, we will like for a reason. we are not the inventors or originators of the music anyway. we are the comsumers. if its out there, its likeable, and if its likeable, theres always a chance for exploitation (overexposure).

thats the nature of the business. note that i said business. anyway, what good is music if you cant share in its enjoyment?

its sad that all "indie" fans want to horde the music for themselves and desperately hope that their faves dont "sell out". from a musicians perspective, wouldnt you want the most exposure as possible?

the delicate balance between indie and pop is often just one listener apart...

Animal Collective and Broken Social Scene are overrated. I like experimental when the Lips do it, but their songs have substance. It feels to me like AC and BSS are just so obviously trying to be artsy, that it really doesn't come off sincerely.

think trial of dead is overrated, can't believe source tag & codes got 10,0 in p4k. last time i've bought a record whitout hearing it first.