The meaning of words change when people are lazy or ignorant for the most part. I'm not being difficult, thats just the case so often.
Often it's a lack of creativity or imagination on the part of the general public. Take Science Fiction. Harlan Ellison suggested we use a different term, like speculative fiction. He didn't change the meaning of the widely used term, he offered a new creative term.
My point is that "indie" has a meaning, and to bend and shape it anywhich way to incorporate all sorts of vague and smoky meanings devalues a perfectly accurate and useful word, without creating anything to replace it.
I'm not insulting the community here; I was being fairly facetious to get people who care about such trivia as music terms to think a bit further than trying to make "indie" a word which can change to mean most anything (judging by the discussions I have read on these boards).
P.S. There is nothing wrong with being definitive.
Otherwise we would have no common understanding of the word "amplified" (for example) as applied in music.

Let's break this down.

If my history is correct (and I believe I've got a decent musical history) then the term "alternative" was coined (or atleast popularized) in the 80's to describe those bands that broke from mainstream pop music. But, in the early to mid 90's alternative's meaning changed to describe popular bands that were more straightforward rock but still not "pop". With that change, people that listened to music that was not popular needed a word to describe it... in comes indie. Over time, once again (this has happened many times in music) a word that was created to describe the "status" of a band became a label to describe the sound of a band.

So, I still have two meanings for indie. When I say a band is indie, I generally mean that they're not in the mainstream's eye (which doesn't generally mean their on a large label, but if they're on a smal label run by a big label, still ok by me). BUT, when we're talking "indie rock", that's all about a sound. I would consider The Strokes sound (esp. on Is This It?) to be indie rock. Along with the White Stripes and The Raconteurs.

Indie Rock is a sound man, it's not about you're label.

And why does it matter that much? Honestly, to each his own. Words DO bend and shift, they aren't concrete, they're very maleable. That's why they're words... they change based on times, they change based on situations, they changed based on feeling, etc.

I don't like getting into big discussions on the music boards, because people often take unwarranted offence, but here I go again....
"Indie rock" is a useless and meaningless term.
"Indie" to describe independently produced music is a useful term. The word independent was applied very early on to labels operating outside the big players.
That's not opinion. Thats historical fact.
Look at all the endless debate on these boards with people trying to define the "sound" of indie.
There has been no consensus. Hazy defintions lead to hazy thinking.
People taking the term indie and applying it to"a" sound(what sound wld that be??); a style, is just insane, because it muddies the waters terribly, and fails to make clear the argument.
It hinders communication when definitions are too malleable.
Re the meaning of Alternative: The meaning of alternative never changed Im sorry.
Alternative has and always been used to describe music that operates outside the mainstream regardless of sound or style. That way, any genre of music can be included. I respecfully disagree with you that in the early 90's the meaning of alternative changed.
No musician or record store geek I know has ever disputed with me that Alternative was anything other than a useful marketing term to provide a contrast to mainstream.
God, why am I wasting my time writing all this stuff anyway ha ha.
Of course, you are free to hold any opinion you like. I'm not trying to bash you. I simply wish to present a (hopefully well thought ) position so we all can have greater clarity in discussing popular music.
Finally, as to the meaning of words.
I have no problem with words taking on new meanings, (Im an English Lit major for heaven's sake) but the meanings that stick are those which develop organically.
Gay and Queer have both developed meaning for the homosexual community because the original meanings of both were cut from a similiar linguistic cloth as to the ends they were put to.
I'm sorry, but in the final wash up I do not think "indie rock" is a useful or meaningful term.
Now Im off to torture some goth kid for his lunch money...

Nickelback is an alt-rock band. In what way are they outside of the mainstream? You're talking like you just arrived from 1995. These particular words have changed and there's no reason to fight it. "Indie" is still very tied up with the independent labels but just because The Decemberists went to a major doesn't mean that they're not making "indie rock". This is just generally accepted and if you have different definitions of these words then you're basically swimming upstream.

Another example. Classical music is dividing into many periods, of which only one is truly "classical", the others being baroque, romantic etc. If someone tells me that they like classical music and I assume that they mean the period rather than the genre then we will never be on the same page in our discussion. Even though I may want to resist the fact that "classical" is a broad term, that doesn't change the fact that it is or that I will be handicapped in my ability to talk about music with other people.

Nickelback are a chart band! They are in no way alternative.
The words have changed for some who are still unable to provide a working definition that is clear.
Of course the Decembrists aren't making indie rock. They never made indie rock.
There is no such thing.
A far better description would be served by providing a more nuanced, subtler, finer response as to the style of music they play.
I am providing detailed strong arguments, but the arguments for creating a genre "indie rock" are diffuse and nonsensical for the most part.
Perhaps in the States where Billboard style classification is rife, this term cuts some ice, but I am yet to see a music store in either Australia or Britain with an "indie rock" section. There is pop, rock, alternative and occasionally "independent/local bands" areas.
You have a poor grasp of music history when you start arguing about classical also.
Classical music is a period, with some slight crossover. No-one is dividing Classical into Baroque or Romantic. My friend with a PhD in Classical Studies would be quite shocked to hear that argument proposed.
Your final point is my point.
How can we, who love music, ever have a meaningful discussion with those coming new to non top 40 sounds if we make a term like indie mean a sound or style, when at this point in history, no consensus has been reached?
Respectfully yrs, lost in '95

If Yes were still around, they'd be called indie rock, right? But they were Progressive Rock 30 years ago. If The Decemberists were around 30 years ago, they would've been considered Prog rock, but we call them indie rockers. Who cares, anyway?

quote:

Originally posted by Ishmaelscoffin:
You have a poor grasp of music history when you start arguing about classical also.
Classical music is a period, with some slight crossover. No-one is dividing Classical into Baroque or Romantic. My friend with a PhD in Classical Studies would be quite shocked to hear that argument proposed.

First of all, I don't have a poor grasp on what "classical" means. People are most certainly dividing the genre into those periods and no amount of doctorate degree waving will convince me otherwise. Secondly, your definition of Nickelback as a "chart band" is once again needless and antisocial. The Decemberists are indie rock by most people's standards and I'm sorry that you're so high and mighty that you can't stoop to our ignorant level and use these terms in the generally accepted way.

Mate, I'm not trying to be high and mighty. Honestly.
I just don't think the term indie rock is a useful term, thats all.
I can see I wasn't clear about Classical. In conversation people talk of Classical & classical.
Let's make the big C the broad umbrella that is music not rock/pop/jazz etc. When people hear Beethoven, Bach, whatever, in general they use Classical as an appelation.
The little c is the the particular period historically.
So if I am talking to a musician playing Handel, I will speak about Baroque, or someone playing Schoenberg, we can talk serialism.
So yes, you are right when you say Classical is divided, but I was meaning classical (which isn't divided).
Anyway, I've dug myself a deep enough hole...
Apologies if you feel offended.
I'm gonna stop now!

quote:

Originally posted by Ishmaelscoffin:
Mate, I'm not trying to be high and mighty. Honestly.
I just don't think the term indie rock is a useful term, thats all.
I can see I wasn't clear about Classical. In conversation people talk of Classical & classical.
Let's make the big C the broad umbrella that is music not rock/pop/jazz etc. When people hear Beethoven, Bach, whatever, in general they use Classical as an appelation.
The little c is the the particular period historically.
So if I am talking to a musician playing Handel, I will speak about Baroque, or someone playing Schoenberg, we can talk serialism.
So yes, you are right when you say Classical is divided, but I was meaning classical (which isn't divided).
Anyway, I've dug myself a deep enough hole...
Apologies if you feel offended.
I'm gonna stop now!

Wow that reminds me of my high school American history teacher. He would say that Washington was a federalist but not a Federalist, because
he didn't belong to the Federalist Party. Or that Teddy Roosevelt was a war hawk but not a War Hawk. And then would penalize you on the test for it. It was pretty goddamn annoying then too.

quote:

Originally posted by brighteyes215:

quote:

Originally posted by Ishmaelscoffin:
Mate, I'm not trying to be high and mighty. Honestly.
I just don't think the term indie rock is a useful term, thats all.
I can see I wasn't clear about Classical. In conversation people talk of Classical & classical.
Let's make the big C the broad umbrella that is music not rock/pop/jazz etc. When people hear Beethoven, Bach, whatever, in general they use Classical as an appelation.
The little c is the the particular period historically.
So if I am talking to a musician playing Handel, I will speak about Baroque, or someone playing Schoenberg, we can talk serialism.
So yes, you are right when you say Classical is divided, but I was meaning classical (which isn't divided).
Anyway, I've dug myself a deep enough hole...
Apologies if you feel offended.
I'm gonna stop now!

Wow that reminds me of my high school American history teacher. He would say that Washington was a federalist but not a Federalist, because
he didn't belong to the Federalist Party. Or that Teddy Roosevelt was a war hawk but not a War Hawk. And then would penalize you on the test for it. It was pretty goddamn annoying then too.

Haha. That seriously sucks for you.

The sad thing is, I partially agree w/ ishmael. I agree that the term "Indie Rock" is useless, but then again, any attempt to classify music is generally useless. Any band that can accurately be pidgeonholed in a category is most likely a very bland group and needs to branch out a bit.

Generally, I've found that labels are stereotypes, plain and simple. And how often are stereotypes completely accurate (except the ones about jews... just kidding) Hell, very little in our world is easily defined.

So, am I to assume that all these people that have bashed which bands are indie rock and which ones aren't have killed this thread. It appears so...

Goddamn it! I've been outed as a teacher..
so, here's my peace offering....Deerhoof rule!
Saw 'em live, and they are one hell of an act (I think they fit this crazy term we've been discussing, altho' I have no idea why)

quote:

Originally posted by b0arder753:
And how often are stereotypes completely accurate (except the ones about jews... just kidding)

That's not funny. At all. Ever.

quote:

Originally posted by ezkcdude:

quote:

Originally posted by b0arder753:
And how often are stereotypes completely accurate (except the ones about jews... just kidding)

That's not funny. At all. Ever.

Hey dude, just remember, it's only okay if he's a Jew himself. Otherwise, we must persecute him. Goddamn bigots, they're all the same, with their generalizations and hatred. Kill 'em all!



(I hope my sarcasm here is apparent.)

quote:

Originally posted by ezkcdude:

quote:

Originally posted by b0arder753:
And how often are stereotypes completely accurate (except the ones about jews... just kidding)

That's not funny. At all. Ever.

Oh, come on.

I'm not Jewish but my best friend is and he enjoys making fun of himself for it. It's true that they've had a horrible time but most of the stereotypes are that they're rich, smart and funny.

Maybe he meant "good" stereotypes, but I didn't take it that way. Yeah, he'd ruin the "joke" by explaining that he meant "good stereotypes about jews are true". Without the context, it's hard to know what was meant. Anyway, "jokes" like these are better left unsaid IMHO. And, yes, I am Jewish.

gee, and there I was thinking I had offended people by disputing the meaning of a music term...yipes!

quote:

Originally posted by ezkcdude:
Maybe he meant "good" stereotypes, but I didn't take it that way. Yeah, he'd ruin the "joke" by explaining that he meant "good stereotypes about jews are true". Without the context, it's hard to know what was meant. Anyway, "jokes" like these are better left unsaid IMHO. And, yes, I am Jewish.

As am I. And you don't see me getting my tallis all up in a bunch.

quote:

Originally posted by brighteyes215:


As am I. And you don't see me getting my tallis all up in a bunch.

That's not the point. The point is one doesn't get to choose how one's remarks are interpreted. You put the words out there, and if you don't give the proper context or explanation, words can be interpreted differently by different people. If I'm offended, then I'm offended. It's that simple. I am sensitive to how people feel, so I never joke about this kind of stuff, especially in a public forum. I'd rather be called unfunny then insensitive (at best).

(BTW, your tallis comment was worth this mini-controversy.)

Musical genres are useful only in the historical sense. Just as was mentioned before, terms that distinguish particular styles are used to describe emergent trends in the ongoing experiment called music/sound/noise. Trying to rigidly confine and order something as creatively unbound as contemporary music is pointless.

Additionally most of the new "catch-all" coinages that get labeled onto new music are fictions written by music critics with all too much time on their hands. "Freak Folk"? Who gives a shit. How does knowing the strict definition of IDM increase my appreciation of Proem? Even though these artists may be creating a very specific sound and architecture within their music, it is and will always be theirs to make and the audience simply has to sit back, absorb it, lean wid it and rock wid it...(ok maybe not those last two)