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"Forum Moderator" Super Bad-Ass Jedi |
Correctomundo! But "our sociological climate" has been around as long as I have. I'm not trying to be self-important. I'm just trying to say that I've noticed, and this is the way it has been for a half-century.
"Naked Woman, Naked Man Where did you get that nice sun tan?" |
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Guru |
You may be right. I'm only 33, but according to my historical knowledge i'd say that our nation, in the past 150 years was never as divided as it is now. In this nation you have two diametrically opposed sides that possess two completely different viewpoints or basic philosophies on the direction this country should move in, the leadership we should elect, and the manner in which we should deal with the most predominant and important issues this nation and the world faces. The 60's was nothing compared to what we have now in 2006 in regards to division among the population. Not since the civil war were we so divided. |
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Jedi |
I would think Pearl Jam's fans would come to expect heavily political albums. In fact, that's why they're there in the first place. Muse, I've only really listened to Absolution but it was pretty thoroughly political too. Their fans shouldn't be surprised by it. Don't like politics? There are about a billion bands on MTV that couldn't give a rat's ass about anything. ________________________________________________________ "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - Hunter S. Thompson tinymixtapes.com / The Skinny / PopMatters |
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Guru |
Actually it wasn't until Bush got elected into office that bands really went off the deep end with the big musical political statements, we're talkin' whole albums decrying Bush, rebublicans and all that's wrong with the right. And now, here we are 7 years later and these bands are still doing the same, singing about the same thing. I think it shows a real lack of creativity, as I stated earlier. I am a huge Pearl Jam fan, have been for 15 years, seen them all over the world but it wasn't until they released Riot Act that I really felt they were rubbing their politics right in my face and that's exactly what they were doing. |
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Jedi |
As I stated earlier, there are a billion bands that have never read the newspaper in their lives all over MTV/Much Music (including Billy Talent). Most of those bands only sing about love/heartbreak, not only exibiting a lack of creativity but a lack of awareness and balls as well. The handful of bands that actually cover politics are absolutely necessary. ________________________________________________________ "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - Hunter S. Thompson tinymixtapes.com / The Skinny / PopMatters |
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Guru |
Filmore, I could care less about the billion other bands out there that don't beat the political horse to death. what they have to say is more or less of no concern to me. This is a personal issue with me because my favorite bands are beating the political horse to death, they're shoving their politics in my face. To name a few Pearl Jam, Incubus, Muse, Radiohead, System of a Down, etc. etc. etc.
I don't mind the occasional song about politics and everything that's wrong with our current leadership, the right, the war, the christians etc. but when it becomes a theme that dominates album after album I start to feel as though these bands care less about creating quality music for their fans and more about pushing their own personal, political message onto people. And that's what makes me feel a bit slighted as an avid fan of music. I'd like to remark that this is still a 'Muse "Black Holes and Revelations"' thread. I understand that i've hijacked it pretty badly. Please feel free to comment on the new album, which I think is excellent. |
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"Forum Moderator" Jedi |
How does having political lyrics keep a band from creating quality music? I think it's pretty admirable that Radiohead, Pearl Jam, Neil Young and others are making political statements with their music. These are the major issues of our day. It's easy to pejoratively dismiss something as political, but political issues are ultimately about life and death, prosperity and poverty, happiness and suffering, hope and despair. Sure, there's a place for love songs and so forth, but as Filmore said, there is no shortage of such songs.
And since no one writes political songs to increase their popularity or record sales, you know these guys are speaking from the heart. They feel strongly about political issues and to hide such feelings would be fake. Why write songs as if politic issues don't exist? They do, and they're important. They shouldn't be shoved aside to truckle to a fanbase. -------------------------------------------------- Anatomy to me is a homesick stomach and a broken heart |
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Guru |
RL, as I said before, I don't mind the occasional political song, I really don't. But it's the beating the dead horse thing that bothers me. It's why I despise country music, because every song is about the same thing: being in love with a woman. There's no creativity in it. How much talent and musical ability does it take to write a country song? Well, imo, very little. It's shallow music because it's all about the same damn thing.
I feel the same way about these friggin' bands that continue to release these political albums. They strike me as shallow because it's the same ole stuff, just to a different beat. It's so hard to escape the incessant liberal whining that has permeated every facet of our media and Hollywood. I'm tired of it, it's freakin' everywhere. And for the last 7 years I've had to listen to some of my favorite bands incessantly whining about the same damn thing. It's like country music, it's boring, predictable, rehashed and shallow. I've reached a point where i'm anxious for Hillary to get elected into office so I can listen to these bands write about something new for a change rather than continually bitching about Bush and Blair. |
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Jedi |
If you don't like what your favourite bands have been singing about for the entirity of King Bush II's reign, then those aren't your favourite bands. There are a billion bands on MTV which never address politics and must therefore be not shallow. They would probably make better picks for your favourite bands. Stop listening to Muse and buy an AFI album. Also, you should avoid any music made from 1968-1974. They had Nixon in office so most albums then were pretty political too. Yet they still play "Ohio" on the radio...hmmmm... ________________________________________________________ "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - Hunter S. Thompson tinymixtapes.com / The Skinny / PopMatters |
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Jedi |
I think I'm becoming notorious for ranting off topic so I'll start by saying that I've had this new Muse CD on all this week and last and I love it. Now, on to my rant.....
As far as politics in music are concerned, I think it's hard to tell from our (fan's) standpoint why anyone writes the music they write. That which seems contrived, may in fact, be genuine and vice versa. Pink Floyd was chock full of political messages and statements and I loved every second of it. Muse has heavy political overtones in the new album, some of which I disagree with, but I respect the effort. Dave Matthews, on the other hand, did the same and I didn't care for it at all. I will say this in regards to the war, the media, politics, and artistic interpretations of each. In the military, when an inspection is looming, everything is tightened up and cleaned to the highest level. That way, when General whoever or Colonel no name comes through to inspect, he sees everything "exactly how it always is". The same happens when crusaders such as Sean Penn, George Clooney, or Bono visit combat zones, sites of tragedy, or areas of political focus. They see what they are presented with and nothing more. I think I am over qualified to speak first hand about these situations. Most artists with political flavor in their work get their information from the same sources that the general public does: the media and word of mouth. None of them have ever served a day in the military or even a peaceful faction of a "change the world" organization. Everything they know or think they know is second hand at best or a polished version of a rotten apple. I have never met the President or Tony Blair, and I can't claim to know where their intentions lie. I can, however, draw conclusions based off the information which I've been provided. Unfortunately, that information is often coming from a source that presents me with what they want me to see. If anyone here has ever seen a movie that has either moved them to tears of put them into a state of rage, then they have been manipulated by a media outlet. They were presented with something that stirred their emotions and, therefore, mission accomplished. This is why I take all media, music, movies, etc with a grain of salt. Unless you have first hand knowledge of a situation, you are not qualified to be a source of information: Period. Although I think it's careless and irresponsible for people to use their clout to spread a message that they are under qualified to pass on, I cannot expect them to stop doing what they feel is right. In closing, I will ask a few broad questions to anyone who either supports or condemns the current administration and world situation. 1. What have you personally done to create positive change? 2. How much are you claiming to know about what goes on and what are your sources? 3. Are you speaking out to make a difference or are you talking because you like the sound of your own voice? Perhaps the personally losses that I’ve experienced weigh on my own opinions but I try to look at everything from a neutral point of view. |
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"Forum Moderator" Jedi |
Were you in the army P-Bo?
I think this is nonsense. By that standard no one in the world is qualified to teach pre-20th century history. Are the only physicists qualified to teach the ones who have actually carried out all the experiments? It is impossible to have direct knowledge of all important events. In fact, most people who claim to have a direct reason to believe something really have nothing more than anecdotal evidence. If we only acted on things that we are 100% sure about we'd never do anything. I don't know about you, but there's not a single thing in the whole world that I'm absolutely, mathematically certain of. I mean, I wasn't alive during the Holocaust. There's no way for me to know for sure that the Holocaust occurred, but if I studied the subject for 20 years I don't think that would disqualify me from being a source of information on the topic. I actually agree that people in general speak with far too much certainty about matters that are relatively uncertain. Oftentimes I cringe when people I agree with make bold pronouncements about national politics. I agree with what they're saying, but it's obvious that they believe it for no good reason or on faulty reasoning. -------------------------------------------------- Anatomy to me is a homesick stomach and a broken heart |
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Jedi |
Good point. I think I covered too way much ground with that statement. I'll revise like this.. People should be careful when passing judgement on a person or event when they recieved their information from a second hand source. |
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Jedi |
I've actually listened to the album now. I think it's okay. I liked Absolution better: that was more of a journey both musically and lyrically.
________________________________________________________ "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - Hunter S. Thompson tinymixtapes.com / The Skinny / PopMatters |
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Guru |
Does anyone else here think the record sounds like Queen? Like, a lot? At least in parts?
On the issue of Muse's context and lyrical content, I won't make a specific argument for this situation, because a) I think what I believe has been said by someone else and b) I'm sick of giving that rap. What I will say is this, and this is only a pet peeve of mine: When you say "political" I interpret it as Muse is talking about POLICY in GOVERNMENT. I would assume, and hope, Muse are talking about THEIR government and THEIR leaders. Because if they criticize U.S. government then I think they need to shut the fuck up, because the U.S. government gives them work visas to tour in the States, and Muse sure do seem like ingrates dissing the U.S. from an armchair across the Atlantic after making money off of Americans, feel me? This is all nitpicking, I know, but musicians don't, and can't, talk about purely political issues. Politics goes too fast ahead of the music industry (this is the first time I'll EVER criticize government of being too FAST with something) for musicians to talk about some specific law or legislation. Neil Young's "Living With War" is a very notable exception. By the time most artists/bands get their releases out to a mass audience, usually, the jig is up. It's over-- the news cycle has turned several hundred times. What musicians, artists, etc. tackle is SOCIAL or SOCIOPOLITICAL issues. Being directly "political" is impossible unless I hear a rapper (probably on a mixtape, which can be put together in one night, if need be) busting a rhyme like: "Occupation in Iraq needs a timetable, dude/Call your Senator on S42!" Yeah, that rhyme was corny. Later her shouts out "my nigga, Joe Biden, I see you nigga, I see you!" But you see what I mean? THAT'S political. I don't even know if the Americans in this thread can name their state's Congressional representatives. (Mel Martinez (R-FL), Bill Nelson (D-FL), Allen Boyd (D-FL 3), respectively, in case you were curious). I'd like to see the Americans on this board do it without looking it up. There's slightly less than a half and half chance that any typical group of Americans can, seeing as that's the numbers of those who vote. Very few people in here are "political." The only people in this country who are really "political," are federal and state employees and beltway insiders (lobbyists, advisors, etc.) and sometimes not even them-- which, on their part, is counter-intuitive to say the least. Anyway, anyone who uses the word "political" incorrectly shows some obvious signs that they're not exactly "politically" astute, therefore hardly qualified to bitch that there's too much "politics" in music or the arts, be it left- or ring-wing. |
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Guru |
Huh? From where I'm sitting, the only one using the word "political" incorrectly in this thread is you. Maybe you should look up the word "political" or "politics" in the dictionary and re-evaluate your statement. Just a thought. |
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Jedi |
Nope. US Foreign policy effects the entire planet: there's no country that doesn't have the right to be critical of the US, and Britain really. Are you saying an Iraq musician would have no right to be critical of the US/UK if they toured the states/Britain? That doesn't make any sense. ________________________________________________________ "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - Hunter S. Thompson tinymixtapes.com / The Skinny / PopMatters |
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Know-It-All |
Yeah dude I believe there's something called Freedom of Speech as well which gives Muse the perfect right to say what they want. That being said political songs are the most tired and obvious direction I feel a band can take lyrically. I mean I really think when a band has run out of ideas but they still want to seem "smart" they turn to singing about politics because hey it's just so easy. Not to pass judgement on Muse, I don't particularly like them but that's just generally what I think. Now on to the actual political situation. Yes different sides have a strong opposition to each other and the situation is exacerbated by a President who clearly favors one side, but truthfully and I say this completely for myself only, we have to fucking deal with it. Yes President Bush by widespread consensus is a shitty leader and has made terrible, terrible decisions but stop fucking belly-aching about it cuz guess what, we have to deal with the situation at hand until the next President comes around. I'm sorry to say but it's no longer 2004 and there isn't any Kerry to be a savior, there's just Bush, a horrible, horrible President, but he's still the President and we're still very much responsible for Iraq, so we have to stop lamenting the fact that he's President and do what we can to make sure the right decisions are made. And unfortunately that's not too much. But writing the same damn protest song a 1000 motherfucking times isn't helping anyone except maybe to put more people to sleep. |
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"Forum Moderator" Super Bad-Ass Jedi |
Well, when will it be OK to write a flippin' protest song? After your brother, father, sister, aunt, uncle, and thousands of others have died for some unnamed something which only had a name after the fact? I don't really get it.
Do you think it's right to run around the world, very selectively, deciding who to topple, who to "just threaten", and who to support, while Nero fiddles? Bush will be gone soon (thank God), but what his administration has wrought will affect a toll on the rest of your and your progeny's life. And you're pissed that some "entertainers" are singing about it?  Music is a form of expression. I don't get why certain topics are off-limits. You see, I grew up with Dylan, but he was doing his thing for so long that I occasionally didn't pay attention to him. Did that make him less relevant? No! I was less-relevant, not him. The artist always blazes the trail. "Naked Woman, Naked Man Where did you get that nice sun tan?" |
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"Forum Moderator" Jedi |
Yeah, seriously. I'm with Mark.
And Brighteyes, what you call "belly-aching" is "fucking dealing with it," unless by dealing with it you mean giving our political leaders a free pass on whatever unconscionable decisions they decide to make.
That's exactly what the artists who write protest songs are doing! They're calling the Prez on his bullshit. What better way to try to make sure the right decisions are made? What would you propose they do instead?
This is really just ridiculous. It makes no sense whatsoever. Muse loses all rights to criticize the US government because it granted them a tour visa? I suppose the same thing applies to the albums Muse sells to US customers? Because the US government could've banned Muse's albums from being sold here, you know. This is the same sort of bizarre argument you always here rednecks making whenever someone questions a US war. "If you don't like it, then why don't you just leave the country and live somewhere else?!" (My answer: I don't want to become a victim of US foreign policy.) And I don't really have anything to add to Hudson's comments on the word "political." -------------------------------------------------- Anatomy to me is a homesick stomach and a broken heart |
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