Mark F, I don't think your pro-Wilco proselytizing is pretentious. People should feel passionately about their music. I just listened to "A Ghost is Born" again, and 'Less Than You Think' does add to the completeness of the album: it makes the opening chords of 'The Late Greats' sound all the more releasing. Having said this though, however much you think 'Less Than You Think' adds to the record, I still find the 12 minutes of fuzz very pretentious: 'Late Greats' to me sounds more like relief than release.
While I can give Mark full-on credit for forcing me to re-listen to AGIB, I'm never gonna be able to share his full-on love for it. I've tried, but I just don't appreciate the 12 minutes of noise, and I agree with pax that I'm just releived when "The Late Greats" kicks in.
Posts: 3875 | Location: ATL, GA | Registered: 25 May 2004
I am in the small camp of people who disliked "Yankee Hotel Foxtrot", founds its songs aimless and slack. Somehow, I liked AGIB a lot more, notwithstanding the aforementioned 11 minutes of noise. "Being There" is one half of a great album. "Summerteeth" was not a sell out -- it was Wilco excelling at a great pop album. I'm also a big fan of the two Mermaid Avenue discs with Billy Bragg.
Wow I just don't understand how anyone can like Wilco and not like YHF. I think that in 20 years it will be one of those famous generational albums (Sgt. Pepper, Freewheelin Bob Dylan, Nevermind, Born in the USA) that is famous not just for the music but for the effect it had on the industry/society at large. Not only is the music incredible, but the backstory with the documentary and the label switching and Warner Bros rejecting it for being too out-of-the-mainstream add to its mystique and only increase its importance. One could even argue that YHF brought attention to the plights of fringe-music everywhere and was one of the catalysts for bringing indie music into/toward the mainstream. Plus, there is all that foretelling 9/11 stuff with the cover art and the chorus of "Jesus, Etc."
Whether it is their best album musically is up to the listener, but it will almost definitely be the one people think of when they think of Wilco for years to come.
I think that overstates the social importance of YHF. You ask 100 people on the street if they have heard of Sgt. Pepper, a healthy majority will say yes. Same with Nevermind. I suspect only about 1 in 100 people would have heard of YHF. Outside a relatively small group of the population that obsesses over these things, I don't think the name YHF means anything whatsoever. (Granted -- obscure albums CAN sometimes have an epochal effect -- e.g. The Velvet Underground and Nico.)
Did YHF cause legions of young people to change their politics, like the early Dylan albums? No. Did it cause a mass social change in how music was perceived and how music functioned in society, like Sgt Pepper? No. Did it change what music sounded like and cause a million bands to form and forge the same sound, like Nevermind? No. Did it cause a few people to scratch their heads and think, "Gee, big music companies are enemies of the artist" -- yeah, maybe.
But I see no evidence whatsoever that YHF caused any particularly large-scale social or musical or industrial change. I haven't particularly noticed some great widespread shift in how indie music is perceived or accepted or in how large music companies function. The same big companies do the same evil things. The same crappy music sells more than anything else. Every once in a while a small band becomes popular and people shriek "indie success story", until 10 other similar bands fail, and are unceremoniously dumped by the record labels, and then everyone calms down.
YHF is not my favourite Wilco album, but I concede that it means a lot, for many reasons, to the -- let's face it -- relatively small fanbase Wilco has. I love Wilco; I own all their albums; I admire their integrity; I think that history will judge them, for their entire oeuvre, as an important band. But I cannot honestly say that I think the album YHF has itself effected any major change in music or society or the music industry.
YHF may or may not be Wilco's greatest album. But remember, in 1967 and for ten years after, everyone was convinced that Sgt. Pepper was not only the Beatles' greatest album, but the best album ever made. Now, it regularly ranks below Revolver, Abbey Road and The White Album.
On the other hand -- I've been wrong about these things before ...
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Peewee,
Hmm...I thought the White Album was regularly rated the 5th out of the 'big 5' Beatles albums because of it's inconsistancy.
Sgt Pepper is the wrong album to compare YHF to. It didn't immediately become a huge hit. YHF is more of a sleeper hit. Right now indie bands like Death Cab For Cutie and Arcade Fire are on the verge of attaining mainstream popularity, and..well, A Ghost is Born debuted at #8 on billboard. If an 'indie' sound ever reaches mainstream popularity, YHF will be among the albums that can be credited with making it possible. (Though Transatlanticism, Give Up, and Funeral helped quite a bit)
Posts: 1783 | Location: Around Boston. | Registered: 24 February 2005
I only mentioned Sgt. Pepper because Paxsoprano used it as a point of comparison.
Maybe I am cynical (or maybe I am just older), but there are always indie bands that have little breakthroughs here and there and, of course, that is great. There's not a year in music history where that hasn't happened. To credit YHF for causing this to happen is not, in my view, historically accurate. YHF is just an example of an indie kind of album that did well -- but it's not as if suddenly all these indie bands have broken through on a major scale and the music industry is changing. I wish that were true -- but I see no evidence of it.
I see the same argument made about the movie industry. Some low budget indie movie breaks out of Sundance and becomes a hit. Everyone starts speculating that the industry is changing, people's taste is improving, the public wants more interesting and challenging art. But none of these prognostications ever prove correct.
It is true that YHF has not had the same kind of sudden impact that Sgt Pepper and Nevermind and Freewheelin' did, but that is not my point. My point is that YHF will be viewed as a turning point in twenty or thirty years. People will look back on the early 00's and think, "O that was about the time Yankee Hotel Foxtrot was released." So what if Wilco is not popular now? I bet Tweedy & Co will be more popular in 2020 than Kelly Clarkson or Britney Spears will be around that time.
I think I've said this before, but I believe that within the next few years we will see an indie act hit the mainstream big, just like Nirvana did in the early 90's, and when they do, people will look at Yankee Hotel Foxtrot as one of the tipping points. There was an article about this in Popmatters a couple months ago: indie music is becoming more and more mainstream (The OC), and it is impossible to deny that YHF did not play a part.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. Undoubtedly, the people who loved YHF when it came out will always point to that record's release as a seminal event. The issue is whether anyone else will. Undoubtedly, some indie band will hit it big in the next few years. And 3,000 others won't. I don't particularly see any evidence that YHF would be identified as the one that started it all.
I think that a lot more people think of OK Computer as the seminal non-mainstream album of the past 10 years.
OK, I guess we need to all still be here in 2020 to see if pax is correct, but for now, I agree with Peewee. As far as I'm concerned, the reason YHF was such a critical darling had as much (though probably more) to do with their fight with their label than the music itself. YHF is a solid album, but I still don't find anything spectacular about it. As far as I can tell, it doesn't really sound like anything which followed.
Yes, I love Wilco. I started this thread. If anything, I'm betting that years down the line YHF will be thought of less than it is now, but I'm gonna shut up because I think most everything has been said. It's all opinion anyway, just like all these lists and all these ratings. You may believe that there is a consensus, but it's still just a consensus of opinion and not fact. Opinions really do change over time. Things are forgotten and others are reappreciated.
As a side note, I don't notice you guys posting at movies. I wish you did. The consensus of critical opinion for many years now is that Citizen Kane is the greatest film ever made. Does anybody here actually believe that to be true?
"Naked Woman, Naked Man Where did you get that nice sun tan?"
Posts: 12874 | Location: Behind the Orange Curtain | Registered: 14 May 2004
As a side note, I don't notice you guys posting at movies. I wish you did. The consensus of critical opinion for many years now is that Citizen Kane is the greatest film ever made. Does anybody here actually believe that to be true?
Honestly, yes I do. If I had to have one movie to be with stranded with forever, it would be Citizen Kane. It is not necessarily the movie that has had the most emotional impact on me, but I could watch it 50 times and still see new things. Just like Blonde on Blonde/Sgt. Pepper, Citizen Kane is an example of an undisputed prodigy doing what he does best at the height of his creativity. To draw more parallels to music, the background/dispute over CK has parallels to Yankee Hotel Foxtrot, part of the reason why it is so famous (and why I believe Yankee Hotel Foxtrot will be more famous down the line). I agree with Mark that YHF is a "solid album," and not really anything more, but that still doesn't mean that its stock won't rise with the passing of decades.
Honestly, I think YHF was musically one of the top few albums of the year. Maybe third behind Sea Change and Yoshime.
And while I wouldn't go to the extent that YHF will be seen as a seminal turning point, they will certainly be more popular than Britney Spears or Kelly Clarkson. (Well, Kelly Clarkson has a chance to stick around, because she actually sings her own stuff. She may not write it, but Britney doesn't even sing it.) For the same reason nobody looks back fondly on the fads of the time like Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer. Good music tends to have much more staying power than pop flashes in the pan.
Mainstream people may not remember them so much, but I wouldn't be remotely surprised to see YHF show up on a future Rolling Stone top 500 albums list 20 years from now, and I wouldn't be remotely surprised to see it listed as one of the best albums of the decade by critics and hipsters.
And, as for indie going mainstream....well, when did Metallica sell more copies of their first four albums? Before or after Black? I predit Death Cab's next record goes gold, minimum, and then Transatlanticism will go gold. And Arcade Fire is still on pretty good pace to do so sometime this year.
Edit: And by the way, the difference between now, and previous indie bands? Downloading. More people have heard of Arcade Fire and Death Cab than have the previous indie fads because they *can* hear about them.
Posts: 1783 | Location: Around Boston. | Registered: 24 February 2005
Originally posted by Bobthespirit: Hmm...I thought the White Album was regularly rated the 5th out of the 'big 5' Beatles albums because of it's inconsistancy.
Not if you listen to what mark has to say about it...in his obstinate, crotchety old-fart kinda way!!!
Posts: 3875 | Location: ATL, GA | Registered: 25 May 2004
Originally posted by Bobthespirit: Hmm...I thought the White Album was regularly rated the 5th out of the 'big 5' Beatles albums because of it's inconsistancy.
Not if you listen to what mark has to say about it...in his obstinate, crotchety old-fart kinda way!!!
That's true pE, but my love for The Beatles was solidified back in 1968 when I was a young fart. From Rubber Soul on, I thought each new Beatles album was the greatest record ever made, but The Beatles still holds the biggest place in my old-fart heart.
"Naked Woman, Naked Man Where did you get that nice sun tan?"
Posts: 12874 | Location: Behind the Orange Curtain | Registered: 14 May 2004
1. Pauline Kael, R.I.P., wrote that, whether or not "Citizen Kane" is the Greatest Movie Ever Made, it is certainly the most FUN great movie ever made. Which is true -- it is just so endlessly inventive, funny, irreverent, and every shot is startling. I've seen it six or seven times and certainly will see it many more times. Every time I see it I get new things out of it.
It's ALMOST as great as "Donnie Darko"!!
2. Beatles. I am in the small minority of Beatles fans who actually think A Hard Day's Night is their greatest album. Why? Because for 30 minutes, it fires on all cylinders, conveying great joy and exhiliaration in making perfect pop songs of 2 or 3 minutes duration.
I am also in the small minority who prefer Rubber Soul over Revolver -- because it combines the best of their youthful exuberance with the best of their invention and experimentation. None of which is to say that the later albums aren't all masterpieces, 11's on a scale of 10. Just stating my personal preferences.
3. Wilco. Bob, you make a good point about downloading. People who live in small towns with no good record stores now have access to a greater variety of music thru downloading and ordering music online. I hope this changes music. And if YHF is on a future list of Rolling Stone's Greatest Albums, I will be delighted -- not because I think it is their best album, but because it is still better than most crap out there.
I am also in the small minority who prefer Rubber Soul over Revolver -- because it combines the best of their youthful exuberance with the best of their invention and experimentation. None of which is to say that the later albums aren't all masterpieces, 11's on a scale of 10. Just stating my personal preferences.
I'll back you up on Rubber Soul, Peewee, and not just because you backed me on the Echo and the Bunnymen record! I, too, prefer Rubber Soul as a whole, although the two records together are a perfect pair. I like the folky elements on Rubber Soul, and the creative elements that previewed future musical explorations (the harpsichord/piano run during "In My Life"). Picking a favorite Beatles album is hard, though.
Posts: 3875 | Location: ATL, GA | Registered: 25 May 2004
