I am in the same position of The Ninth Wave and I am after recommendations.
I am familiar with/own most of those in the list above. I particularly appreciate a spot of Chet Baker. What I am really after is sultry female jazz vocalists. My reference point being Roisin Murphy's track The Truth on Handsome Boy Modelling School's first album. I love the kind of smokey chilled, lounge-room vibe, coupled with some hip hop beats.
Not sure if this forum is for the purists or people who are into other stuff.
This here's an invitation to open my mind. Hurrah.
She's certainly influenced by Billie Holiday and other Jazz divas, but I do believe most serious Jazz aficionados would laugh at Amy Winehouse's music being called "jazz". She's no more jazz than Avril Lavigne is punk. They're both pop singers.
----- I don't dig the Stripes, but I'll go for Har Mar.
Posts: 5106 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 19 June 2005
I don’t like the term “elitist” so I won’t use it but I do consider myself to be a Jazz aficionado and no, Amy Winehouse is not Jazz. Eric is right that she might be influenced by Billie Holiday but then again, who isn’t? She is purely a contemporary R&B/pop singer. She is no more Jazz than Norah Jones or Lily Allen are—and that’s nothing.
Plus, I would argue that in order to be in the realm of Jazz you would need to know a bit about the music. That means reading chord changes, pop symbols, knowing your blues scales (12-bar, 16-bar, etc.,) borrowed chords, improvising (scatting if you are a singer,) diminished and especially augmented chords, the importance of the ii-V(7)-I progression, chords with the added 9th and 11th, maybe some with the omitted 5th and why not, even a few German Augmented chords and the Neapolitan—preferably in first inversion. And I am not too sure that judging by her music, she knows much about that.
And yeah hudson, I read the first line to the wiki link. Even though it may have its checks and balances, I wouldn’t believe everything they spew out.
----- Things could be different but they’re not…
Posts: 5647 | Location: Texas | Registered: 27 December 2005
Yeah. Well, I didn't feel like starting an "amy winehouse" thread. So I posted in this one. I guess I could've posted in the pop section, but she's classified as jazz by most of her British fans, so this is close enough.
In hudson's defense(I'm as shocked as you are), the All Music web page describes two of her four styles as "Crossover Jazz" and "Vocal Jazz". In addition, her biography uses the word 'jazz' about 18,000 times. Later on, it does mention that she somewhat abandoned jazz for Back to Black, but I think the point stands about the importance of jazz in her vocal stylings.
I'd guess she knows a lot more about jazz than Avril Lavigne does about punk. Furthermore, I disagree that performing jazz(especially as a vocalist) requires technical knowledge of jazz constructs. Do you think that Billie Holiday had much of a technical training in jazz? Did she ever use scat singing? Does she cease to be a jazz singer because of this?
Keep in mind, I'm not arguing with you guys on the point Winehouse's music fits best in the pop/r&b genre. I'm just saying it isn't that absurd to describe it as jazzy, or at least note the jazz element.
Posts: 705 | Location: DC | Registered: 05 January 2007
Originally posted by MajorNougat: In hudson's defense(I'm as shocked as you are), the All Music web page describes two of her four styles as "Crossover Jazz" and "Vocal Jazz". In addition, her biography uses the word 'jazz' about 18,000 times. Later on, it does mention that she somewhat abandoned jazz for Back to Black, but I think the point stands about the importance of jazz in her vocal stylings.
I'd guess she knows a lot more about jazz than Avril Lavigne does about punk. Furthermore, I disagree that performing jazz(especially as a vocalist) requires technical knowledge of jazz constructs. Do you think that Billie Holiday had much of a technical training in jazz? Did she ever use scat singing? Does she cease to be a jazz singer because of this?
Keep in mind, I'm not arguing with you guys on the point Winehouse's music fits best in the pop/r&b genre. I'm just saying it isn't that absurd to describe it as jazzy, or at least note the jazz element.
Well said Major. I agree. And she really does have great voice. I don't see how anybody can not hear jazz when she sings. The comparison to Avril Lavigne is unsubstantiated and insulting to Winehouse's vocal talent.
Originally posted by hudson: Well said Major. I agree. And she really does have great voice. I don't see how anybody can not hear jazz when she sings. The comparison to Avril Lavigne is unsubstantiated and insulting to Winehouse's vocal talent.
Yeah, well it’s nice when someone comes on and says things in a very eloquent manner to contest an issue. So I guess it must be nice to just come on and say, “um, yeah, well said, um…that what I think too.” Kind of like the Jay-Z thread, you had nothing to say so you kind of just disappeared/disapparated.
quote:
Originally posted by MajorNougat: In hudson's defense(I'm as shocked as you are), the All Music web page describes two of her four styles as "Crossover Jazz" and "Vocal Jazz". In addition, her biography uses the word 'jazz' about 18,000 times. Later on, it does mention that she somewhat abandoned jazz for Back to Black, but I think the point stands about the importance of jazz in her vocal stylings.
I'd guess she knows a lot more about jazz than Avril Lavigne does about punk. Furthermore, I disagree that performing jazz(especially as a vocalist) requires technical knowledge of jazz constructs. Do you think that Billie Holiday had much of a technical training in jazz? Did she ever use scat singing? Does she cease to be a jazz singer because of this?
Keep in mind, I'm not arguing with you guys on the point Winehouse's music fits best in the pop/r&b genre. I'm just saying it isn't that absurd to describe it as jazzy, or at least note the jazz element.
The aspects that you mention as “technical knowledge of jazz constructs” is Jazz though. I meant that those kinds of elements are what makes Jazz, well Jazz. That’s why it sounds the way it does. I don’t know much about what Billie Holiday knew or didn’t know but some people don’t always need technical draining to know what they are doing. That’s the thing with Jazz, it goes way beyond the technicalities and a lot of it is aesthetic. Some people listen to tons and tons of Jazz. They then go on to try and transcibe the solos and essentially are training their ears at the same time. Thus, when they pick up a Sax, well they know what they are doing.
Holiday grew up listening to Jazz and she already had the ear for it. You know how sometimes when you hear her singing you might think, “Hmm…that note she just sung…it sounded wrong to me. I wonder if she intentionally did that?” Well, the thing is that it did make sense. She could hear what the chord was and sung a note that was both bright and bold, she was so powerful that she sung the note which such force. Which is what you are supposed to do in those situations. When you get to that Dm chord you are supposed to bring put the F natural even more than you would the other notes because that’s what makes it minor. She knew what she was doing all of the time.
It’s like Charlie “Bird” Parker. He was arguably the best improvisor/soloist of all time. He was surrounded by great musicians who knew how to write great music and he used his ears to perform. Take any of his solos and slow them down to about 80 BPM, then transcribe it and then get the chords. Every single note Bird ever played fit perfectly into the chord and entire song. Check out “Donna Lee” for a great example of this.
I don’t know if anything that I said makes sense but that’s just a little bit of why I disagree with someone referring to Winehouse as a “Jazz singer.”
----- Things could be different but they’re not…
Posts: 5647 | Location: Texas | Registered: 27 December 2005
Originally posted by FragileKidA: Yeah, well it’s nice when someone comes on and says things in a very eloquent manner to contest an issue. So I guess it must be nice to just come on and say, “um, yeah, well said, um…that what I think too.” Kind of like the Jay-Z thread, you had nothing to say so you kind of just disappeared/disapparated.
Translation:
"my name is FKA, I like to carry grudges. I like to follow hudson around because the guy rubs me the wrong way. Hudson knows more about music than me and that really bothers me. Hudson is also more intelligent than I am, younger and better looking, so I feel threatened by his very presence here at metacritic.
I will continue to pester hudson and follow him around the boards until the other mods can see what a true menace he is and maybe we can all get together and ban him
Originally posted by FragileKidA: That’s actually pretty funny and to think that I was the only moderator that stood up for you when you were about to be banned.
You didn't do anything. Eric and I worked it out between us. And that's that. Since then you've done absolutely nothing but follow me around and pester me. Don't you have anything better to do?
Originally posted by FragileKidA: The aspects that you mention as “technical knowledge of jazz constructs” is Jazz though. I meant that those kinds of elements are what makes Jazz, well Jazz. That’s why it sounds the way it does. I don’t know much about what Billie Holiday knew or didn’t know but some people don’t always need technical draining to know what they are doing. That’s the thing with Jazz, it goes way beyond the technicalities and a lot of it is aesthetic. Some people listen to tons and tons of Jazz. They then go on to try and transcibe the solos and essentially are training their ears at the same time. Thus, when they pick up a Sax, well they know what they are doing.
Holiday grew up listening to Jazz and she already had the ear for it. You know how sometimes when you hear her singing you might think, “Hmm…that note she just sung…it sounded wrong to me. I wonder if she intentionally did that?” Well, the thing is that it did make sense. She could hear what the chord was and sung a note that was both bright and bold, she was so powerful that she sung the note which such force. Which is what you are supposed to do in those situations. When you get to that Dm chord you are supposed to bring put the F natural even more than you would the other notes because that’s what makes it minor. She knew what she was doing all of the time.
It’s like Charlie “Bird” Parker. He was arguably the best improvisor/soloist of all time. He was surrounded by great musicians who knew how to write great music and he used his ears to perform. Take any of his solos and slow them down to about 80 BPM, then transcribe it and then get the chords. Every single note Bird ever played fit perfectly into the chord and entire song. Check out “Donna Lee” for a great example of this.
I don’t know if anything that I said makes sense but that’s just a little bit of why I disagree with someone referring to Winehouse as a “Jazz singer.”
Well, what you said makes sense, but it was also kind of my point. Billie Holiday had an ear for jazz because she grew up around it. If you read the second paragraph in the all music link I put in my previous post, you'd see that Amy Winehouse grew up around jazz as well.
More importantly though, I'm not really disagreeing with you. I wouldn't describe Winehouse as jazz either, more just containing a jazz influence.
Posts: 705 | Location: DC | Registered: 05 January 2007
Originally posted by MajorNougat: More importantly though, I'm not really disagreeing with you. I wouldn't describe Winehouse as jazz either, more just containing a jazz influence.
Naturally, I knew you weren’t. I was just trying to explain myself better so that you knew where I was coming from.
----- Things could be different but they’re not…
Posts: 5647 | Location: Texas | Registered: 27 December 2005
One of my favorite Female Jazz Vocalists at the moment is Carmen Lundy. I have been listening to her new album that was released today (1-29-08) entitled Come Home. Two songs that I most enjoy are Come Home and Happy New Year. Carmen Lundy can be compared to some other female Jazz Vocalists like Renee Manning and Rene Marie.
I'm not sure if she'd be considered jazz per se - more like vocal pop and standards - but Maude Maggart is quite good. She happens to be Fiona Apple's sister, but however you feel about Fiona don't hold it against her. They don't even sound particularly similar vocally.
I managed never to hear Amy Winehouse sing yet (never listen to radio), but I'm sure that 'most serious Jazz aficionados' will not consider her 'Jazz'. Way too popular, although from what I hear her drug-habits are in the grand old Jazz-tradition.
Jazz-aficionados are as stupidly conceited and sectarian as the modern art-crowd. The agreement to be on a pedestal of good taste is an exquisite attraction in itself, unrelated to the enjoyment of music.
