I've played most of the games listed. Some of my all-time favorite games include "hardcore" PC RPG's and strategy games. Some of my favorites include console RPG's and "pick up and play" action/adventure games. I enjoy both types of games, and many of the arguments I have read in this topic make no sense to me.

Saying that all JRPG's are the same game is like stating that all PC RTS's are the same. Why make any more FPS's? They're all the same. This argument can be made for any genre, especially if you don't happen to like it.

I really hate to see the age card played. A great game is a great game, and a good story is a good story, no matter how old you are. When I see things like "I've outgrown this or that", you are really saying that your tastes have changed, not necessarily improved. But hey, I enjoy Pixar movies, laugh at Spongebob, and DVR Avatar so I guess I'm really not concerned with maturing.

I really don't see how you can give Psychonauts props (I game that I fully enjoyed), but call Mario games "consistently enjoyable but utterly uninspired". Psychonauts isn't that far removed from Super Mario 64, which basically invented the 3D platformer (seems pretty inspired to me). Really, it seems like with youandwhosearmy, it is a severe case of PC elitism. Take two JRPG's and call me in the morning.

Just because I don't enjoy a game or a particular genre doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the game. It just isn't my thing. Sometimes it's as simple as that.

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Originally posted by youandwhosearmy:
Your argument re: strategy games is confusing and can be dismissed out of hand. Sure, you could just work on your chess game instead. But then, you could just play with a ball in a cup rather than dicking around on Super Metroid (a SNES game I love).

I guess what I mean is that to me all these strategy games are fundamentally the same as chess...except they have vastly more complicated rules, and they're not really helping me "get" anywhere. Yeah, they have storylines, but those are always beyond trivial. The stimulation that Metroid gives, on the other hand, is completely different from ball in a cup.

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I loved Secret of Mana (and Chrono Trigger, and FF6) growing up, but I couldn't go back to it now. Even though it is still sitting in my SNES, right now, under my bed. I just feel as though I've outgrown it. The gameplay isn't good enough to justify sitting through the simplistic, linear plot and childish writing. Ditto Zelda games. Ocarina was great, but I couldn't go back to it now, simply because there's nothing to bring you back for a second time. The problem with Japanese RPGS is that they're not actually RPGs at all. There is little to no control over your character or the direction of the plot, when compared with a game like Fallout, or the Elder Scrolls series, or Torment.

I tend to view JRPGs as more like fairy tales, or like the manga/anime you mentioned earlier (although I am not a big fan of that either, I can see the connection). The plots and writing are not really intended to get you to be realistic or to make you think, and when they are they end up failing horribly (FF7), but what they do have are exaggerated situations and characters meant to get you wrapped up emotionally. In that sense JRPGs do take from anime and also from theater, whereas WRPGs are trying to imitate film but the technology is just not there to characterize in the subtle ways that film does - facial expressions, etc. Graphically we're still dealing with what are basically cartoons, just really really advanced ones, and I am not sure that will ever change. Characterization is something I find severely lacking in more open-ended games; Fable promised it, but obviously fell WAY short. What I need is a game with self-driven development of the avatar AND meaningful secondary characters with relationships to the hero that go beyond feeding him quests and dialog trees.

Another problem I have with the WRPG is that it seems like most of the time the decisions presented are totally meaningless, only serving to change some dialog. It's true that you can change how you get there, but you are almost always funneled through the same end path anyway, with the only differences being the ending cinematics. In that sense they are no more advanced than Chrono Trigger was. Deus Ex is a great example of this, and it's the only major fault I can find it the game. What you do changes nothing but a few lines of dialog. A moral dilemma is presented to you (kill or incapacitate), but the differences between them in-game for the first few missions are incredibly marginal, and after that no one even notices. And have you ever saved Lebedev from being killed by Natasha on the plane? Nothing changes! He doesn't even have anything new to say to you. I'm sure these are failings of technology/storage space more than anything else, but they still hurt the idea that you're in control of your character's destiny.

Still, I would agree with you to the extent that JRPGs have at best been in a very srious rut for the past 10 years, and I definitely give new WRPGs more attention. I think there's a chance that the Wii could help change this, but that can only happen if the developers start coming.

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I agree that the writing in No More Heroes is very good, and witty, but let's face it, Suda 51 (May have his name wrong) is the exception that proves the rule when it comes to Japanese designers. Look no further than his obsession with WESTERN games and culture. He's doing something different, where the others are churning out consistently enjoyable but utterly uninspired Mario, Castlevania, Final Fantasy etc etc games.

I wouldn't say that those games are uninspired, especially Mario. It's just that their inspiration has nothing to do with writing and plot depth and everything to do with design. Besides Half-Life Western level design seems rather staid to me in comparison to Japanese design - most developers aim for realism over giving you something really out there, and I think you need to have a love for the bizarre and the nonsensical to really get into *anything* Japanese.

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It may also be that console games, particularly action games, just have more 'pick up and play' appeal than hefty commitments like PC RPGS and strategy games.

Definitely true, and it is a factor for me. As I get older I find that I actually have less patience for dealing with slow games, and less tolerance for playing for more than an hour or so at a time. The only games that can still get me "in the zone" for hours now tend to be roguelikes (very much pick up and play), and then only once in a while.

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You mention you're a fan of Deus Ex. Have you ever played System Shock 2?

I played it for a few hours, and while I did like the atmosphere, the respawning of the enemies pretty much completely ruined it for me. I like to take my time and explore, and I found it incredibly annoying and immersion breaking to have generic zombies pop up in hallways I already cleaned out whenever I turned my back. They respawn *fast*. On top of that I just didn't find combat all that fun, as weapons break far too easily, and the skill system (and everything else) felt very clunky after having played DX first. I'm sure there are probably mods that fix all or most of my complaints, so I should give the game another shot at some point.

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Originally posted by odysseyandoracle:
I tend to view JRPGs as more like fairy tales, or like the manga/anime you mentioned earlier (although I am not a big fan of that either, I can see the connection). The plots and writing are not really intended to get you to be realistic or to make you think, and when they are they end up failing horribly (FF7), but what they do have are exaggerated situations and characters meant to get you wrapped up emotionally. In that sense JRPGs do take from anime and also from theater, whereas WRPGs are trying to imitate film but the technology is just not there to characterize in the subtle ways that film does - facial expressions, etc. Graphically we're still dealing with what are basically cartoons, just really really advanced ones, and I am not sure that will ever change. Characterization is something I find severely lacking in more open-ended games; Fable promised it, but obviously fell WAY short. What I need is a game with self-driven development of the avatar AND meaningful secondary characters with relationships to the hero that go beyond feeding him quests and dialog trees.

Another problem I have with the WRPG is that it seems like most of the time the decisions presented are totally meaningless, only serving to change some dialog. It's true that you can change how you get there, but you are almost always funneled through the same end path anyway, with the only differences being the ending cinematics. In that sense they are no more advanced than Chrono Trigger was. Deus Ex is a great example of this, and it's the only major fault I can find it the game. What you do changes nothing but a few lines of dialog. A moral dilemma is presented to you (kill or incapacitate), but the differences between them in-game for the first few missions are incredibly marginal, and after that no one even notices. And have you ever saved Lebedev from being killed by Natasha on the plane? Nothing changes! He doesn't even have anything new to say to you. I'm sure these are failings of technology/storage space more than anything else, but they still hurt the idea that you're in control of your character's destiny.

Still, I would agree with you to the extent that JRPGs have at best been in a very srious rut for the past 10 years, and I definitely give new WRPGs more attention. I think there's a chance that the Wii could help change this, but that can only happen if the developers start coming.

What recent JRPG's have you played? I think we've already been over this. There are plenty of JRPG's that venture off the beaten path, they just aren't being made by Square Enix.

Obviously there is only so much that developers can do with a game regarding choices. Have you played Knights of the Old Republic (or the sequel)? Besides dialogue lines, your choices will affect your appearance, your powers, the way NPC's react to you (though this is limited), and ultimately the ending. It isn't even close to perfect, but it getting better. Both are great games as well.

I like how you compared stories in JRPG's to fairy tales. The emotional investment is a huge reason why people keep coming back to them. Nobody talks about the dragon boss at the end of Might and Magic IV, nobody cares about your created hero from Daggerfall; but they do care about Cloud and Sephiroth (as evidenced by all of the spin-offs and movies they've sold). I would like to see more of a fusion of WRPG freedom and customization with JRPG character development in the future. KOTOR did a great job with this (as well as Betrayal at Krondor over a decade ago).

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Originally posted by Built to Sleep:
Obviously there is only so much that developers can do with a game regarding choices. Have you played Knights of the Old Republic (or the sequel)? Besides dialogue lines, your choices will affect your appearance, your powers, the way NPC's react to you (though this is limited), and ultimately the ending. It isn't even close to perfect, but it getting better. Both are great games as well.

I like how you compared stories in JRPG's to fairy tales. The emotional investment is a huge reason why people keep coming back to them. Nobody talks about the dragon boss at the end of Might and Magic IV, nobody cares about your created hero from Daggerfall; but they do care about Cloud and Sephiroth (as evidenced by all of the spin-offs and movies they've sold). I would like to see more of a fusion of WRPG freedom and customization with JRPG character development in the future. KOTOR did a great job with this (as well as Betrayal at Krondor over a decade ago).

Yes, I've played and thoroughly enjoyed both KOTOR games, and they're a step in the right direction, especially the second one. But the moral dilemmas still turn out too often to be obvious stuff of the "Should I kill this little girl and take her _____ or should I save her?" type. And yeah, that's a dig at Bioshock. There's an obvious "good" answer and an obvious "evil" answer. KOTORII improved on this a bit, but there's more work that could be done. I don't say this as a criticism of these games, because I do think that it has as much to do with technology (and money) as anything else. It's just exciting to think of how much better we can get. It will be interesting to see how Fable 2 turns out, because I think what we're talking about is what they're trying to get at.

Also, looking back at my post, what I said about FF7 sounds a little harsh. I didn't mean that it failed as a game or as a story, just that it failed as far as delivering intellectual/philosophical content. You are exactly right that it's a good example of what I'm talking about. I just can't think of many Western games that provide that same sort of attachment to specific characters, beyond "I invested XXX number of hours into this guy, I better find out what happens to him" with open-ended games.

quote:

Originally posted by Built to Sleep:
I've played most of the games listed. Some of my all-time favorite games include "hardcore" PC RPG's and strategy games. Some of my favorites include console RPG's and "pick up and play" action/adventure games. I enjoy both types of games, and many of the arguments I have read in this topic make no sense to me.

Saying that all JRPG's are the same game is like stating that all PC RTS's are the same. Why make any more FPS's? They're all the same. This argument can be made for any genre, especially if you don't happen to like it.

I really hate to see the age card played. A great game is a great game, and a good story is a good story, no matter how old you are. When I see things like "I've outgrown this or that", you are really saying that your tastes have changed, not necessarily improved. But hey, I enjoy Pixar movies, laugh at Spongebob, and DVR Avatar so I guess I'm really not concerned with maturing.

I really don't see how you can give Psychonauts props (I game that I fully enjoyed), but call Mario games "consistently enjoyable but utterly uninspired". Psychonauts isn't that far removed from Super Mario 64, which basically invented the 3D platformer (seems pretty inspired to me). Really, it seems like with youandwhosearmy, it is a severe case of PC elitism. Take two JRPG's and call me in the morning.

Just because I don't enjoy a game or a particular genre doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the game. It just isn't my thing. Sometimes it's as simple as that.

Yes, saying all JRPGs is the same IS like saying all PC RTSs are the same. That's why most PC RTSs suck too. And most FPSs. Hell most games suck. But Japanese RPGs just seem to be even more homogenous than these other genres. Say what you will about the latest abysmal Halo clone, at least they bother to change the lead characters' haircut.

My age has nothing to do with it, when I said I'd outgrown it, I did simply mean that my tastes have moved on, and I tend to prefer games that are a bit more sophisticated. I didn't mean that only kids can enjoy a JRPG, or that if you enjoy them you're any less mature. It all depends on your taste. But certainly I consider the best RPGs to be better than the best JRPGs. Going back to something that Odyssey said in the original post; I would much rather replay the Ultima series or the M&M series (and did just that a few years ago) than the Final Fantasy series (from which I played 2,3,5,6 and 7).

As for Psychonauts and Mario 64, they're both brilliant. Super Mario Galaxy is brilliant too. I didn't mention anything about Mario 64 being uninspired. But what Psychonauts has over Mario is a dash of intelligence, creativity and humour. Originality, even if not originality in actual gameplay.

I'm not saying that all Japanese games are uninspired, or that all JRPGs are bad. I've played scads of them. Forgive me for making sweeping generalisations, but isn't that what this thread is all about? Odyssey hypothesised that J games tend to stand the test of time. I gave some reasons why I thought that was, and said that while J games manage a higher and more consistent standard of quality than western games, the majority of the absolute best games have been western. But yes, I think part of the problem is we're comparing apples with oranges. I will certainly concede that the best console games have been Japanese. But then of course I'd have to counter that by saying that the best games in general have been PC games.

And Prof, as for saying that strategy games are all the same, it's just that the rules change; that's absurd. Strategy games ARE the rules! That's the whole point. The only difference between Chess and Risk and Checkers and Go is different rules!

On the other hand with JRPGs the rules tend to stay the same. It's only the plot and characters that change (and these only barely).
I don't hate JRPGs. I'll be buying the new Tales of Symphonia for the Wii and Disgaea and Chrono Trigger for the DS. But surely you can see that it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect more of these designers than the genre exercises they keep giving us.

Also BTS; you're damn fucking right I'm an elitist.

edit: I just thought of a good example of what I'm talking about. The World Ends With You. A JRPG that is actually original, and it doesn't suck. It's NOT too much to ask!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: youandwhosearmy,

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Originally posted by youandwhosearmy:
edit: I just thought of a good example of what I'm talking about. The World Ends With You. A JRPG that is actually original, and it doesn't suck. It's NOT too much to ask!

I'm really looking forward to playing this game eventually. There aren't many RPGs with roughly contemporary settings, and the ones I can think of were brilliant - I'm sure there are others but right now all that's coming to mind is Earthbound and parts of Live-a-Live.

I'm not sure why this isn't done more - pseudo-medievalism and sci-fi intrigue were already beaten to death before video games were even invented.

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And Prof, as for saying that strategy games are all the same, it's just that the rules change; that's absurd. Strategy games ARE the rules! That's the whole point. The only difference between Chess and Risk and Checkers and Go is different rules!

Uh, actually, I didn't say that. What I said was this:

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But it seems to me like those are all incredibly in-depth, complex games. Which are great, by all means, but it's hard for me to play those kind more than once (like odyssey), even if they're made by a Japanese developer (I'm looking at you SRPGs over 1000 hours).

I've no problem with rebuttals but if you're gonna put words in my mouth, please make them sound mildly intelligent. Thanks.

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Originally posted by ProfAmaretto:

I've no problem with rebuttals but if you're gonna put words in my mouth, please make them sound mildly intelligent. Thanks.

Sorry Prof, you're absolutely right. I was actually responding to what Odyssey said, not you. My mistake. The quote was:

quote:

Originally posted by odysseyandoracle:
I guess what I mean is that to me all these strategy games are fundamentally the same as chess...except they have vastly more complicated rules

Whether or not that is 'mildly intelligent' or not, you can take up with odyssey :P

And odyssey, Earthbound is another great example of a JRPG that somewhat redeems the genre. Thanks for reminding me of that.

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Sorry Prof, you're absolutely right. I was actually responding to what Odessey said, not you. My mistake. The quote was:

quote:
Originally posted by odysseyandoracle:
I guess what I mean is that to me all these strategy games are fundamentally the same as chess...except they have vastly more complicated rules



Whether or not that is 'mildly intelligent' or not, you can take up with odyssey :P

No worries, I don't typically get offended on these boards unless someone puts words in my mouth. But mistakes happen. As for odyssey's quote, typically I agree with him, but not this time. A lot of strategy games do have similar features, but no more than a typical RPG or platformer.

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Originally posted by ProfAmaretto:
A lot of strategy games do have similar features, but no more than a typical RPG or platformer.

Of course they have similar features. We wouldn't have genres if games didn't share features.

And you're right. Maybe I am being too hard on JRPGs; it's not like a lack of originality is a problem unique to that genre. It's just that RPGs are my favourite type of game, and JRPGs never deliver the experience that I want from them.

It's like being a film fanatic, in a world where only 5 good films have ever been made, and the rest are by Uwe Boll.

I think Torment has just ruined other RPGs for me forever. There's really nothing else that comes close.