Grand Theft Auto IV's been out for a couple months now. I was blown away by it when it came out; there's no doubt that it really did deserve the reviews it got. But after the first month, I stopped playing. I haven't picked it up since then, and I really have no interest in playing it again any time soon, if ever. I started wondering if this game is going to have much staying power, and I think the answer is no. I can't imagine why someone who missed the boat on it today would want to play it in 10 years, when they'll have come of age with far more impressive games. The gameplay just isn't all that interesting when separated from the presentation.

How does this relate to the poll topic? I feel like, in general, Western games don't have nearly the shelf life that Japanese ones do. Western classics like Betrayal at Krondor, Quake, Doom, pretty much everything Ultima and Might and Magic, just feel incredibly dated today. I can't imagine why somebody born in 1995 would want to go back today and play the original Doom. There are of course exceptions, like Half-Life and Deus Ex, but I think they just prove the rule.

On the other hand, the best Japanese games of the past are just as fun today as they ever were, and they routinely make best-of lists that are practically untouched by Western games. It's hard to come up with good direct comparisons, but given the choice who would take the original Tomb Raider over Mario 64? Or Eye of the Beholder II over Final Fantasy IV? Tomb Raider has become a joke, though there's been a bit of a revival recently, and Eye of the Beholder has been essentially forgotten. Or even today - is there any chance that Ratchet and Clank Future, an extremely well made game game that might be even a little underrated by critics, will be remembered at all in comparison to Super Mario Galaxy? Will Gears of War outlast Resident Evil 4 in our memories?

For whatever reason, I believe that the best Japanese games become timeless, and the best Western games become history lessons. I don't mean that they're bad, but they lose their magic for anyone who wasn't there the first place. If you agree with me, why do you think this is? And if you think I'm wrong, what am I missing or forgetting?

Question:
Do you generally prefer Japanese video games or Western (American/European) ones?

Choices:
Japanese
Western
No preference

 

quote:

Grand Theft Auto IV's been out for a couple months now. I was blown away by it when it came out; there's no doubt that it really did deserve the reviews it got. But after the first month, I stopped playing. I haven't picked it up since then, and I really have no interest in playing it again any time soon, if ever. I started wondering if this game is going to have much staying power, and I think the answer is no. I can't imagine why someone who missed the boat on it today would want to play it in 10 years, when they'll have come of age with far more impressive games. The gameplay just isn't all that interesting when separated from the presentation.

This kind of goes along with my theory that Rockstar games are like "awesome" summer blockbusters: they seem great when you're sitting in the theatre with friends, munchin' on five dollar popcorn. But then you wait a few months, the movie comes out on DVD, you buy it and you're like, " This is the movie I loved so much?"

While I've never been a fan of the GTA games, I did play Bully religiously for about a week - maybe 3-4 hours a day (which is a lot of gaming for me). I stopped for a day or two, went to pick it up, then realized I had absolutely no desire to play. And I still don't. That was a year and a half ago...

I have a friend who owns all the GTA games on PS2, bought them when they came out, played them to their full extent, but has no desire to revisit them in anyway.

While I think there are probably some great Western games that we're just not thinking of (Elder Scrolls IV, to name one), all in all, Japanese game developers pwn their western counterparts. Yes, that's right... pwn.

Oh, and the Ratchet and Clank series rules!!! I had never played any of them, until about a month ago, when I picked up the very first one. I played through it twice in a row (which is rare for me to do with a game) and it was fun both times. Perhaps this series bucks the Western trend...

I think that it all depends on the game and the developer. Some Japanese games haven't aged so well, and some Western ones have.

Starcraft and Diablo II are both old as dirt as far as videogames are concerned, and both have aged incredibly gracefully. Heroes of Might and Magic III is just as fun for me to pick up and play today as it was the day I purchased it.

On the other hand, older Resident Evil games with their antiquated control schemes are just painful.

I really don't replay that many games (too much new stuff to get through), so what really counts for me is the first time through. In that regards, I think western developers are doing a fine job. Here is a top 25 from last gen from me and, to the best of my knowledge without looking it up, whether the game is Japanese or Western:

1. Grand Theft Auto III - W
2. Resident Evil 4 - J
3. Final Fantasy X - J
4. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City - W
5. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic - W
6. Xenosaga Episode I - J
7. Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem - W
8. Jak II - W
9. Beyond Good & Evil - W
10. ICO - J
11. Dragon Quest VIII - J
12. Burnout 3 - W
13. Silent Hill 2 - J
14. Tales of Symphonia - J
15. The Legend of Zelda: The Twilight Princess - J
16. Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time - W
17. Suikoden III - J
18. The Incredible Hulk: Ultimate Destruction - W
19. The Mark of Kri - W
20. Katamari Damacy - J
21. Madden NFL 2001 - W
22. Kingdom Hearts - J
23. God of War - W
24. Shadow of the Colossus - J
25. Xenosaga Episode III - J

So the final tally looks like 12 Western, and 13 Japanese games. I know this list is highly subjective and I haven't played nearly everything (I don't like either the Halo or MGS games from last gen, so that is a wash), but unlike music, I am pretty confident that I have decent taste in games.

quote:

1. Grand Theft Auto III - W

Explain??? Even if I liked the GTA series, I'd probably rate others in the series higher than this. Is this a matter of sentiment? I know you said the list was highly subjective, but this seems pretty high...

quote:

Originally posted by ProfAmaretto:

quote:

1. Grand Theft Auto III - W

Explain??? Even if I liked the GTA series, I'd probably rate others in the series higher than this. Is this a matter of sentiment? I know you said the list was highly subjective, but this seems pretty high...

I bought the game at release back in what, 2001? The feeling of freedom was exhilarating at the time, and the gameplay felt totally fresh. Even though I think that Vice City expanded upon 3, and San Andreas was clearly a superior game to both, neither could capture the feelings or excitement I had when playing 3. They both had a feeling of "been there, done that" to varying degrees. If I had played any of the last gen sequels first, I am sure my list would be totally different.

I still list the original Final Fantasy as my favorite in the series. It was the first console role playing game that I had played, and was an incredible experience in 1990 (I believe). Do I think it is superior to IV, VI, VII, or X? Absolutely not. It is all a matter of the right game at the right time.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Built to Sleep,

quote:

I bought the game at release back in what, 2001? The feeling of freedom was exhilarating at the time, and the gameplay felt totally fresh. Even though I think that Vice City expanded upon 3, and San Andreas was clearly a superior game to both, neither could capture the feelings or excitement I had when playing 3. They both had a feeling of "been there, done that" to varying degrees. If I had played any of the last gen sequels first, I am sure my list would be totally different.

I see and understand this...

quote:

I still list the original Final Fantasy as my favorite in the series. It was the first console role playing game that I had played, and was an incredible experience in 1990 (I believe). Do I think it is superior to IV, VI, VII, or X? Absolutely not. It is all a matter of the right game at the right time.

This, though... whatever floats your boat, I suppose. I'd much rather replay IV or VII than I, though, that's for sure. And replay value definitely comes into mind when I start listing my favorite video games. But different strokes, eh?

quote:

Originally posted by ProfAmaretto:
This, though... whatever floats your boat, I suppose. I'd much rather replay IV or VII than I, though, that's for sure. And replay value definitely comes into mind when I start listing my favorite video games. But different strokes, eh?

Replay value is pretty much a non-factor when I consider my favorite games. The only thing that I really consider is the overall experience that I had while playing the game.

For the record, I have too much in my backlog to replay anything, but if I did pick a FF to replay, it probably wouldn't be the first.

quote:

Replay value is pretty much a non-factor when I consider my favorite games. The only thing that I really consider is the overall experience that I had while playing the game.

I see. That's cool, I agree with that for some games I suppose. I guess I just tend to give a game extra points if it makes me pick it up and play it again (especially if it does so the second the game's over).

Eh? You don't consider replay value a factor? I can see not having enough time to play a game after you've beaten it, but not considering at all whether or not you want to play a game again after you've beaten, is ridiculous.

Replay value is perhaps the thing that all great games should share in common, games should be just as enjoyable, perhaps even more enjoyable the second time through.

Odyssey you're writing off Western game developers a little too fast. You mention a few great Western games and say they just prove your hypothesis. I beg to differ. Deus Ex is just as relevant and brilliant a game today as it was when it came out, effortlessly blending RPG and shooter, not to mention a great story. The Half-Life series speaks for itself. How can you simply write off great games, as not being classics. Writing off games like Bioshock, Morrowind, Mass Effect, Fallout, or games that have defined so much of popular culture as Halo or GTA and even under appreciated games such as Siege of Avalon and Pyschonauts, its well criminal to say the least. I'm not going to lie, I haven't learned much history from Deus Ex or Pyschonauts except maybe that great original games don't get appreciated as much as they should.

quote:

Originally posted by Liberalkid:
Eh? You don't consider replay value a factor? I can see not having enough time to play a game after you've beaten it, but not considering at all whether or not you want to play a game again after you've beaten, is ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? If I enjoyed a game the first time through, why put so much importance on whether I want to play it again or not? Isn't that one experience enough? Maybe not for you, but it is for me.

As you can probably tell from my list, I mainly enjoy games with memorable characters and interesting storylines. Not really the kinds of games that lend themselves that well to replays, especially if I sink 100+ hours into the first playthrough.

For me, it is all about the impact a particular game had at the time that I played it. Perhaps most other people rate games based on more tangible factors like replay value and graphics. IMO, it all boils down to whether I feel that the time I spent with a game was worth it.

quote:

Originally posted by Built to Sleep:

Why is it ridiculous? If I enjoyed a game the first time through, why put so much importance on whether I want to play it again or not? Isn't that one experience enough? Maybe not for you, but it is for me.

As you can probably tell from my list, I mainly enjoy games with memorable characters and interesting storylines. Not really the kinds of games that lend themselves that well to replays, especially if I sink 100+ hours into the first playthrough.

For me, it is all about the impact a particular game had at the time that I played it. Perhaps most other people rate games based on more tangible factors like replay value and graphics. IMO, it all boils down to whether I feel that the time I spent with a game was worth it.

I can't see graphics caring any weight with how good a game is, because no matter how good a game is, there is always going to be something better. I also don't see how a game with a memorable storyline and interesting characters, doesn't lend itself well to replays. A great game, like a great film or novel should be worth more than one read, view or play-through. It does make sense to gauge how much you liked the game by how much you enjoyed it, but a great game will leave you wanting to play it again. A game can warrant only one play-through, but a great game you should at the very least want to play again.

quote:

Originally posted by Liberalkid:
Odyssey you're writing off Western game developers a little too fast. You mention a few great Western games and say they just prove your hypothesis. I beg to differ. Deus Ex is just as relevant and brilliant a game today as it was when it came out, effortlessly blending RPG and shooter, not to mention a great story. The Half-Life series speaks for itself. How can you simply write off great games, as not being classics. Writing off games like Bioshock, Morrowind, Mass Effect, Fallout, or games that have defined so much of popular culture as Halo or GTA and even under appreciated games such as Siege of Avalon and Pyschonauts, its well criminal to say the least. I'm not going to lie, I haven't learned much history from Deus Ex or Pyschonauts except maybe that great original games don't get appreciated as much as they should.

But that isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm not trying to write off Western games; I've enjoyed the hell out of a lot of them. I probably spent as many hours on Diablo I and II combined as I did on my Super Nintendo in total. I would say that I do prefer Japanese games overall, but that's because I'm not rabidly interested in the genres Western developers usually inhabit.

What I mean is that the appeal of older Western games, in general, seems to be limited to those who experienced that game when it first came out. Young people still go back and play Mario and Mega Man games made before they were even born. I can't imagine that there are many who have the slightest interest in playing Commander Keen or Duke Nukem. I feel that this is the case with many classic Western games, and I think it's going to be the case with many current ones.

I loved Grand Theft Auto IV, I would've given it at least a 90, and I wouldn't take that score back today. That's how good it was to me when I played it, and what else should reviews be based on? It really is a cultural phenomenon, but as a game I will be surprised if it holds up as well in the future as Resident Evil 4, or Okami, or even No More Heroes.

The Elder Scrolls games are actually a great example. Once Morrowind came out, why would anyone want to play Daggerfall except as nostalgia? Oblivion likewise made Morrowind irrelevant - there are actually things I like better in Morrowind, but for someone who is new to the series there is no reason to play it. It seems to me that newer Western games are much more likely to obsolete older Western games as compared to newer and older Japanese games. That's an awkward sentence, but I can't come up with a good way to frame it. Once Gears of War 2 comes out, will there be any substantial reason for a new gamer to play Gears of War 1? My guess is not really, unless they screw something up. Ever tried to play System Shock 1 after playing System Shock 2? Jeez. If a true sequel to Deus Ex that improves on virtually every aspect of the game is ever made, will there be much of a reason to play the original? I'm afraid the same thing will happen with the inevitable successor to Bioshock.

I have a few theories as to why this is, but I think a major factor is play control. The best Japanese games always have extremely tight and intuitive controls, whereas in Western games there is much more learning and fiddling around involved. From what I understand about Japanese gamers, they won't accept anything less than perfect control. Conversely Western games usually have more complex gameplay, and the complexities of the past just feel dated today. No approach is inherently better than the other, but I think they do make a difference when it comes to "timelessness."

But this is all just my thoughts. It could instead be the case that Western developers just weren't as good as Japanese ones until the last gen, or not as adept at developing for consoles, which are of course much more popular than PC gaming is. I'm pretty sure that GTAIV won't be remembered as a timeless classic in the future, but it'll be interesting to see what happens to games with more complex gameplay like Bioshock.

IT'S ALIVE!

I think in large part it can be attributed to progress. In the FPS genre, we're seeing near-constant progress; games like CoD4 and Orange Box simply control a helluva lot better than any console shooters in the past. For a long long time, it was a major pain in the ass trying to handle shooters on the console, but I think developers have finally refined the control scheme to the point at which things play well.

Look at JRPGs, for comparison, and they hit their groove over a decade ago. They reached a point at which they handled fine enough (I think Final Fantasy VII really set the standards for about a decade), and since then, things have settled down, and progress really hasn't been made. I mean, ten years progress has given us, what - generally less random battles? It's fairly typical for each new game to come up with a twist on the standard formula, but there isn't much progress in general. Story-wise, they're still pretty good, but there just isn't a much gameplay progress.

I think it's highly likely we'll see a similar slowdown in terms of progress in FPSs, which will make it easier to go back and replay old games in the genre.

There has really only been one JRPG, remade a thousand times. And it's not very good.

All the best games have been western, but Japanese games are more consistent with a higher batting average.

quote:

There has really only been one JRPG, remade a thousand times. And it's not very good.

All the best games have been western, but Japanese games are more consistent with a higher batting average.

?????

I'll give you the first statement (just barely - only because I have such a hatred for 80% of all RPG's, Japanese or otherwise), but for the second statement I'm gonna need to see some rock solid evidence. Oh, and Halo and GTA aren't evidence - they actually detract from your statement.

quote:

Originally posted by ProfAmaretto:

quote:

There has really only been one JRPG, remade a thousand times. And it's not very good.

All the best games have been western, but Japanese games are more consistent with a higher batting average.

?????

I'll give you the first statement (just barely - only because I have such a hatred for 80% of all RPG's, Japanese or otherwise), but for the second statement I'm gonna need to see some rock solid evidence. Oh, and Halo and GTA aren't evidence - they actually detract from your statement.

Well yes, Halo and GTA aren't standouts as far as I'm concerned.

So how about planescape torment, half-life, x-com, the elder scrolls, arcanum, baldur's gate, fallout, starcraft, system shock, homeworld, civilization, command & conquer, deus ex, a slew of tim schaffer games (psychonauts, grim fandango), and on and on.

I can't think of a single Japanese game that approaches those heights, although of course there are many excellent ones. To refute that, I'm going to need to see some rock solid evidence. Oh, and Final Fantasy VII and Metal Gear aren't evidence - they actually detract from your statement.

I feel like this has a lot to do with when, where, and how you grew up.

I was born in '85, so I just got in on the NES generation, and to me the SNES and Genesis are pretty much gaming heaven. I didn't really get into PC gaming until much later. I can respect the games you've named, and I'd count some of them among my very favorites (Half-Life and Deus Ex especially), but I just see no reason to play many Western games more than once. The gameplay of games like Planescape and Baldur's Gate just isn't exciting enough to justify another round just to fiddle around with characters, and while the writing in those is very good for a game, it's God's honest truth that you're better off reading a book instead, if that's what you're looking for. And to top it off you can do that when you're on the can or the bus, too. I'm not competitive at all, so I'm not a big fan of strategy games (which run into a similar problem to story-based games - instead of dicking around on something that might be literally unplayable for me in 20 years, aren't I better off working on my chess game?). And I really wanted to enjoy Grim Fandango, but the game is buggy as all hell, and it was impossible for me to get anywhere without becoming extremely frustrated with restarts/reboots/tweaks. Same problem with Psychonauts - I tried playing the free GameTap version, but it just did not work on my PC, with no error feedback to help solve the problem.

Anyway, like I said above, maybe it's just me but when I play many Western games I enjoy them thoroughly but have little or no desire to go back and play them again. But I never seem to get tired of playing Super Mario Bros. 3, or Secret of Mana, or Ocarina of Time, or Super Metroid. After I beat Resident Evil 4 for the first time I immediately started playing it again, and I can't even count the number of times I played through Resident Evil 2. Konami keeps making the same Castlevania game over and over again and it's still fun every time. I could give lots and lots of other examples. To me Western games are more like movies - they're definitely worth playing through once, and the best leave an impact, but there's only a handful I have any desire to see again. But - I do have friends who will watch the same movies over and over again, and whether it's coincidental or not they also seem to prefer FPS/WRPGs over Japanese games.

I don't know if you've played No More Heroes for the Wii, but I would also say that the writing in that game is at least as intelligent as the games you've mentioned, if in a very (very) different direction - the term makes me want to vomit, but I'm sure some would call it "post-modern." For my money it is also the best game of this gen so far, although it's very niche.

Looks like we just have different points of view. It seems like you tend towards a more action-oriented style of gaming. For what it's worth, I was born in '83, so I'm not much older than you are. We probably even have case of the good old console vs PC clash going on here. The types of games you seem to enjoy are traditionally favoured by consoles, whereas those I enjoy are favoured by the PC. Another factor in my opinion, or perhaps just a side effect of it, is that I detest the anime style. Not so much visually or aesthetically as spiritually.

Your argument re: strategy games is confusing and can be dismissed out of hand. Sure, you could just work on your chess game instead. But then, you could just play with a ball in a cup rather than dicking around on Super Metroid (a SNES game I love).

I loved Secret of Mana (and Chrono Trigger, and FF6) growing up, but I couldn't go back to it now. Even though it is still sitting in my SNES, right now, under my bed. I just feel as though I've outgrown it. The gameplay isn't good enough to justify sitting through the simplistic, linear plot and childish writing. Ditto Zelda games. Ocarina was great, but I couldn't go back to it now, simply because there's nothing to bring you back for a second time. The problem with Japanese RPGS is that they're not actually RPGs at all. There is little to no control over your character or the direction of the plot, when compared with a game like Fallout, or the Elder Scrolls series, or Torment.

It's interesting that you point to bugs as a deciding factor in putting you off many of these games, and I think it's a big one. The fact is, old computer games can be discouragingly tough to get working on a new system, whereas the joy of a console is you can still pull out a 15 year old SNES if you feel like a blast on Castlevania. Or, even simpler, you can just download a ROM, for free, and play it on your PC. This has been a big factor in extending the life of console games, and by extension Japanese games.

I agree that the writing in No More Heroes is very good, and witty, but let's face it, Suda 51 (May have his name wrong) is the exception that proves the rule when it comes to Japanese designers. Look no further than his obsession with WESTERN games and culture. He's doing something different, where the others are churning out consistently enjoyable but utterly uninspired Mario, Castlevania, Final Fantasy etc etc games.

It may also be that console games, particularly action games, just have more 'pick up and play' appeal than hefty commitments like PC RPGS and strategy games.

On the other hand, when it comes to the PC games I've mentioned, I still finish X-Com at least once a year. I've played through Daggerfall, Morrowind, (Oblivion was a huge let-down) Torment and Fallout many times, using different characters and following different paths each time. Strategy games like the Heroes of Might and Magic and Civ games will never leave my hard drive.

You mention you're a fan of Deus Ex. Have you ever played System Shock 2?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: youandwhosearmy,