Does it feel to anyone else like Square lost their way when they merged with Enix? Their SNES and PS1 RPG's are almost always classic (with the notorious exception of FFVIII, forever banned in my memory), yet their more recent offerings have been lacking severely (with the pleasant exception of Dragon Warrior VIII); more in the ways of storytelling then in gameplay.
I can't think of a better example than FFXII or Kingdom Hearts II. Did anyone really know (or care) what was going on in those games' stories? And the obscene amount of FFVII sequels! Just stop already. They've already ruined a great game by trying to flesh out the story (i.e. Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus). I'm going a little overboard, but indeed when I feel that such a great game company has done a huge disservice to its fans, I have to speak up...

I can’t believe I missed this thread!

I know how you feel, as I’ve been really disappointed with Square-Enix’s recent releases.

I admit, I really loved FF X, apart from Tidus being a pretty lame lead character, I thought the game was pure brilliance, and for this reason, I was able to enjoy FF X2 as well, as it summed up the ending better.

As for all the Crystal Chronicles releases, and FF XII, what the hell are they thinking?

I’m no programmer or fiction writer, but for Christ sake, I know I could come up with better RPG’s. Revert here and here for my FF XII thoughts, and I recently played CC My Life as a King and commented on it here.

Some of the decisions they’ve made in terms of game play are ridiculous. When they’re not busy trying really hard to screw up everything, they’re lazily releasing half assed games that I wouldn’t accept money for from a stranger.

I thought that DQVIII and FFX were both quite brilliant. I liked FFX more than any of the PS1 era RPG's, and would consider it my 3rd favorite in the series. I also thought that the first Kingdom Hearts was a very good game. I enjoyed FFX-2 for the same reasons as PJ.

I thought that Kingdom Hearts II was a bit of a throwaway game. The game was way too easy, and didn't have enough going on with gameplay or story to keep it interesting because of the lack of challenge (at least when a Zelda is easy, they throw some cool puzzles at you to keep you entertained).

FFXII is an interesting game. I can't speak on the game as a whole yet, because I am still working on it (just finished Draklor, so that is a reference point for those of you who have finished). I would rather the story focus more on character development than it does, but it certainly isn't bad so far and gives me enough reason to carry on. The gambit system is fun, but once you have your gambits where you want, there really isn't much to do. The search for rare and elusive items is addictive, and reminds me of my long-run with Diablo II. It isn't really why I choose to play a console RPG though.

The biggest problem that I have with the game is the lack of information provided to the player in the game. Finding the rare hunts can be just about impossible without an FAQ. Same as the bazaar goods. Sure, there are hints in the beastiary, but most are incredibly vague.

All in all, I don't think it is a bad game. Pretty middle of the road for me so far, but not what I expect from Squeenix. So to get to the point, the last couple of games I have played don't give me hope that the company is moving in the right direction, but two games cetainly don't indicate a long-term pattern.

quote:

Originally posted by Built to Sleep:
The biggest problem that I have with the game is the lack of information provided to the player in the game. Finding the rare hunts can be just about impossible without an FAQ. Same as the bazaar goods. Sure, there are hints in the beastiary, but most are incredibly vague.

I agree, this was really frustrating, especially when you try to get some of the ultimate weapons.

Anything great about the game was compromised by the bad decisions that I’m simply shocked that the developers made. To be more specific:

The chests regenerating all the time and generally containing random amounts of fuck all gill; It’s not very rewarding, and it kind of takes the thrill out of opening a chest.

Random traps everywhere. What the fuck? Oh that’s great, now I have to constantly cast Libra, or take up my only accessory slot so that I can see them. WOW thanks for wasting playability with something completely pointless. I’m serious, whoever’s idea this was should have been slapped and then fired.

There is like 5 or 6 chests in the game that if you open, will prevent you from obtaining the ultimate weapon of the game, and the chests have no relation to anything. Oh that’s nice, not only have they erased all thrill by filling chests with random fuck all gill, but now, if I open the wrong chests, I can’t get the ultimate weapon. While they’re at it, why don’t they just take a shit in my sandwich?

The License board is pointless, really, what’s the point in it? It doesn’t limit anything, it doesn’t control anything. All you’re merely doing is wasting time by checking off licenses with license points, when every character can check off any license. There is not a shred of strategy to it whatsoever. It’s just a pathetic, pointless, watered down sphere grid at best.

The main character Vann (crap name by the way) is boring, and the story revolves around him about as much as it revolves around a flying pig. Ash should have been the main character.

There is so much more, I remember playing this last year with a mate, we’ve conquered hundreds, if not thousands of games between the two of us, and we both have a very different idea’s of what a good RPG is, but even we agreed that FF XII was a joke. We were just so shocked at how bad it actually was.

quote:

Originally posted by Primordial Jamshed:

The chests regenerating all the time and generally containing random amounts of fuck all gill; It’s not very rewarding, and it kind of takes the thrill out of opening a chest.

I can't agree more. I still remember when I beat the optional boss in the Tomb of Raithwall (name withheld to avoid spoilers), defeated it, solved the puzzle to find the secret area, and discovered the chest back there. I opened it up and received like 150 gil. I thought I had done something wrong, so I consulted an FAQ for the first time. After that, I have pretty much been playing the game with FAQ's to help me find all of the optional items and rare game. I hate using guides, but for those of us who like to complete most of what a game has to offer, this one requires it and that just bothers me to no end.

well for me, Squaresoft went to hell once 10 released. the lack of originality with the plot, characters, and the battle system was growing ever obvious with final fantasies I-VII.

VIII has my respect amongst the best of squares RPG's simply from the fact that the difficulty, the plot, the gameplay, and the battle mechanics used were almost completely original. plus its also a love story, not my favorite plot-centers but really engrossed the story alot. nothing will ever compare to VII's plot but VIII is definitely nothing to sneeze at.

IX was also a fantastic game from Squaresoft regardless of the childish theme behind the characters. the Plot wasnt very original, and the battle system wasnt either. the new "Trance" mechanics were somehwat fun to mess around with, especially Freya's and Vivi's; but they were basically the same as a limit break, except not as emjoyable. the final boss to IX was a major disappointment though, not the absolute final boss, i mean Kuja. a bit of a joke of a final boss to a final fantasy when compared to all the others in the past.


X on the other hand, i could hardly stand to play it. IX is when Square had lost their edge, away from the "adult" suggested final fantasies and broadened their audience range to increase marketing sales. so from then on, every Final Fantasy has been aimed at younger audiences to pull them in, while the die hard final fantasy fans were still hooked on a new challenge.

As for XI, well, i played WoW for 4 years, never even bothered to take XI seriously after trying the free trial.

XII is a 50/50 rank with me. its very unique with the battle system especially, and tends to take alot from tactics with the plot, and the high stakes politics conflicts the countries encounter with each other. im not sure how far into the game im at, i have every character and im currently close to the town Arcadia. but i havent been playing in a few weeks. once i beat XII i will probably appreciate the game more, but atm my general opinion on the game is undecided. the gambit system almost killed me with laughter though, the fact that, if done correctly - you dont actually need to do anything in the game besides move around a bit and press x through chat. licenses seem to be a bit weak from the fact that it says you need to be careful how you spend them, but everyone gets the exact same ones, so theres no uniqueness there. plus its too easy to obtain licenses, especially when an item doubles how many you get from an enemy. the boss fights are a little repetitive in a non-final fantasy sense, the whole "free roaming action-RPG" attempt at this game was a good one, but still doesn't do the franchise justice; plus the boss fights themselves remind me of playing some old school action arcade game with the boss life meter at the top and the pointless running around as if you can avoid an attack.

but yeah, overall final fantasy 1-7 were remarkable in their own styles, Tactics was nothing anyone has ever seen in a final fantasy before, and has the greatest musical score, gameplay, and customization of any final fantasy, VIII tried to incorporate new techniques and game mechanics and worked very well, IX was a sell out to a larger market but still a very enjoyable game, X was just a failure in my opinion. XI wasn't even worth wasting a subscription and XII is undecided for me as of yet.

i think they have just milked the prized cow a little to much since VIII, and rather than end it, or take a few year break from it all, they keep releasing mediocre and watered down pathetic excuses of what they could make. every single Final Fantasy from IX onwards had something in them that made me think "this could be changed around so much to make it work as an awesome RPG".

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kazin86,

Wasn't FFXI released before WoW? If you had played XI at release you might have a different opinion.

How can you honestly state that X was aimed at less mature audiences? Because you didn't like it? The plot and character development were at least as complex as any of the PS1 FF's. I will leave your other opinions about X alone (even if they're wrong ), as you certainly have a right to dislike the game.

XII seems to be geared toward more mature audiences, with it's plot focus on politics (ever notice the not-so-subtle similarities to Star Wars) and with it's MMO like gameplay. Whatever you think of the quality, I think that, if anything, Square is trying to keep Final Fantasy attractive to the FFVII generation.

quote:

Originally posted by Built to Sleep:
Wasn't FFXI released before WoW? If you had played XI at release you might have a different opinion.

How can you honestly state that X was aimed at less mature audiences? Because you didn't like it? The plot and character development were at least as complex as any of the PS1 FF's. I will leave your other opinions about X alone (even if they're wrong ), as you certainly have a right to dislike the game.

XII seems to be geared toward more mature audiences, with it's plot focus on politics (ever notice the not-so-subtle similarities to Star Wars) and with it's MMO like gameplay. Whatever you think of the quality, I think that, if anything, Square is trying to keep Final Fantasy attractive to the FFVII generation.

X was aimed at a less mature audience simply from the maturity most of the characters had, the attitude's they showed, the general plot to the story, of sin and the main characters own father being one of the main bad guys (star wars much?) hell the sequel (worst mistake ever btw) was aimed at pre-teen girls lol. i respect your opinion that X was a great game, all my friends liked it, but you have to admit they tried to do a few too many new things in that game rather than slowly expand what the franchise could do over a period of time.



oh, the blitz ball sport sucked too lol, just my perspective

Meh, the story line in X was probably the thing I liked least about the game.

What really made the game enjoyable to me was the sphere grid. A lot of people rag shit on the sphere grid, but it does prevent all your characters from turning out the same during the story course of the game, and the beautiful thing is that once you do reach the end of the game, you can make all the characters the same if you want.

The sphere grid basically forces you to strategize what character will do what, but becomes more flexible as the game progresses, and then gives you the reward option of making all your characters fuck off powerful if you’re willing to go and modify the grid and power level your characters. Personally, I love that

I also loved the battle arena because it offered such a huge side quest to the game that was necessary to master if you wanted to defeat the Dark Aeons.

I loved the way you could craft all your armor and weapons abilities, and the summons in X were awesome; making the player able to control the Aeons moves was an awesome addition that I’d love to see done again some day.

quote:

Meh, the story line in X was probably the thing I liked least about the game.

Hooray! Someone's picked up on my long-forgotten thread. When I made this, I thought for sure I'd get a lot of different responses to it, and then... nothing. But thank you Primordial for resurrecting it.

That being said, your quote above pretty much sums up my disgust with recent Square Enix games and a lot of RPG's in general. Isn't the story half, or more than half of the reason why I'm playing the game? Sure, I want a good combat system, but at the end of the day, I want to like my characters and the story just as much as any other gameplay mechanic.

That's why Earthbound for the SNES is one of my favorite RPG's of all time. Great story, great bizarre characters, and for once, an RPG not set in a fantasy/sci-fi realm. Brilliant.

Anyways, to me one of the main problems at Square right now is the overwhelming amount of influence Tetsuya Nomura has over them. He has been the character designer for some of Square's most popular games (FFVII, Parasite Eve, etc.), and just recently has moved into the "director" for game series like Kingdom Hearts, the movie FFVII: Advent Children, and The World Ends With You. And he's currently working on one of the iterations of FFXIII. The man just needs to stop. FFVII: Advent Children was a disgrace, Kingdom Hearts (while boasting a decent battle system) has a horrible, horrible story, and though I have not played "The World...", my roommate who loves Square bought it and found it to be quite boring and stupid. None of this makes me look forward to FFXIII as a return to form.

Now let us bow our heads and remember Super Mario RPG, one of Square's all-time best games, and a criminally under-appreciated one at that.

The only major Square game I've played since the demise of the PSX was FFXI, and believe me, it's not just a case of someone having played WoW first. FFXI sucked real bad, at least when it was released. Money was literally nonexistant for lower level players, and it was virtually impossible to kill ordinary mobs by yourself for many classes. Having to rest after every single fight right at the beginning of the game...seriously, that just isn't fun. I'm sure it's changed for the better since then (I played on the PC beta), but anyone who played it at the start knows why it didn't become terribly popular. I'm not crazy about WoW either, but it's a hell of a lot more beginner friendly than FFXI is (was). It's the same reason DDO failed...it's nice to talk about promoting grouping and social play, but the simple fact is that MMOs aren't tabletop games and can't possibly conform to that same atmosphere.

As for the other Square games, I can't muster up the slightest bit of interest in any of them, even now that a PS2 can be had for a song. The graphics and character designs for FFX and FFXII (and FFXIII, from what I've seen) are so incredibly generic that it's hard to believe that the same people could be producing these games. Everybody looks the same, and because of that I have a hard time believing that they could possibly have any real personality. It depresses the hell out of me, as producing characters with actual tangible differences used to be one of Square's greatest strengths.

The JRPG genre is dead, all I see are clones. This is also why the Japanese video game market has been in such a decline lately. People get tired of being fed the same old shit every year, no matter how much you pretty it up. It's really no mystery to me why Nintendo is clobbering Microsoft and Sony this generation, but that's a different topic altogether.

quote:

Originally posted by odysseyandoracle:
As for the other Square games, I can't muster up the slightest bit of interest in any of them, even now that a PS2 can be had for a song. The graphics and character designs for FFX and FFXII (and FFXIII, from what I've seen) are so incredibly generic that it's hard to believe that the same people could be producing these games. Everybody looks the same, and because of that I have a hard time believing that they could possibly have any real personality. It depresses the hell out of me, as producing characters with actual tangible differences used to be one of Square's greatest strengths.

The JRPG genre is dead, all I see are clones. This is also why the Japanese video game market has been in such a decline lately. People get tired of being fed the same old shit every year, no matter how much you pretty it up. It's really no mystery to me why Nintendo is clobbering Microsoft and Sony this generation, but that's a different topic altogether.

You are making a lot of generalizations based on some screenshots that you have seen. If you are going to declare the JRPG genre dead and full of clones, you should probably try to at least play what most consider the best of last generation's releases.

quote:

Originally posted by Built to Sleep:
You are making a lot of generalizations based on some screenshots that you have seen. If you are going to declare the JRPG genre dead and full of clones, you should probably try to at least play what most consider the best of last generation's releases.

That's a fair point, and it kind of gets at what I mean here. I mean, I'm sure they are not poor games. But my point is that when someone like me, who's been playing all of Square's games since the NES days, just isn't interested anymore, something's gone wrong. Final Fantasy XII has sold almost 3 million less than Final Fantasy X - to be fair, FFX has had 5 extra years, but that gap seems unlikely to close, especially since many (most?) PS3s aren't backwards compatible now.

But the larger issue to me is the decline in the Japanese console market that can only be described as precipitous. Even the Wii has not been quite the success story in Japan as it is in the rest of the world, certainly not comparable to what the DS has done there. If it hadn't been for the Wii the market would be almost nonexistant. The recent movement of JRPG development to the XBOX360, a console that roughly 23 people in Japan own, is another sign. It all says to me that the Japanese are getting tired of "traditional" gaming, and there's gotta be a reason for that. They'll still come out and buy the big games - like Final Fantasy or Metal Gear Solid - but new console franchises don't seem to have much of a chance.

If you're not interested in Square's games (though I do recommend you at least try FFX), why not check out some of the niche titles? Persona 3, Steambot Chronicles, Shin Migami Tensei: Nocturne, even an SRPG like Disgaea might be something just fresh enough to renew your interest in the genre.

well think of the final fantasy franchise as a mountain. the series acsended up the video game food chain as one of the best series ever, had some flat time between 7-8, and slowly descended downward ever since. It's still a great series, and i actually enjoy playing XII and looking forward to XIII, but Squaresoft will never make another VII.

Every Series has their best hit and then they fall short on the rest of them. star ocean had the second story, breath fo fire had their third installment, final fantasy had 7,8 and tactics.

say what you will about VIII, the character, plot, and theme was the major success they had with the game. the summons themselves were the ebst of any final fantasy, but they way they were implemented, as well as the entire junction and draw system, was a little sub-par, but the rest of the game, especially the musical score and the direct involvement in limit breaks, were absolutely amazing.


in my opinion, if you took the character design from VII, VIII, and tactics, the musical score from VII,VIII, and even IX, the summons from VIII, the plot concept of VII, and the gameplay of IX, you will have the best final fantasy ever. but this is just my opinion.

I like the way you think.

My ideal FF would not only have to rival Square’s most successful titles, but would also have to break into some new ground, how? I’m not sure. Obviously, you would need original, but awesome characters in an original, awesome setting with an awesome plot, but apart from that, there would have to be quite a few things brought back to the franchise, like:

More characters for crying out loud! I get really disappointed when I play a new FF, and I discover that I’m stuck with the same 5 or 6 characters for the entire game. FF VI had something like 14 characters, as well as temporary characters. I’d like to see at least 8 compulsory characters (neatly incorporated into the party throughout the game to keep things fresh) and at least an optional 3 characters, and don’t make half of the entire party any of the following: children, whiney losers, teenagers, or weird, brooding “animal-like” characters that never say anything. Limit the entire party to at most 2 of the previous.

They have to bring back the fully open world that you can actually fly around and explore with heaps of extra dungeons and hidden places, otherwise getting an airship is such a “who cares” occasion. Get rid of the coordinates, and selecting locations on a map bullshit, and let me explore the planet, it’s more fun this way. We’re easily at the point now where the game designers can dramatically increase the scale of a computer game planet compared to what they were like on the SNES and the PS. Obviously, making a planet to real scale is a bit unrealistic, but they could easily make a large planet with a large scale that feels and looks real, where once you enter towns, cities, dungeons etc, the scale would increase to a completely real scale.

I’d like to see something like the sphere grid used again. It doesn’t have to be exactly the same, but just something that will allow for some strategy and prevent all your characters from being the same, but will ultimately allow for complete freedom towards the mastering stages of the game, and bring back “Break the Attack Limit”, Break the HP Limit, and Break the MP Limit.

Being able to control your Summons like a character was brilliant, and they should definitely use that again, or at least give you some similar control. However, I would like to see more Summons available, at least 15!

I love the idea of merging different materia’s on your weapons to create different effects, but perhaps take it the next level by making it essential to both level up and merge different materia in order to acquire its next stage of power, and allow for merging more than 2 at once.

As for weapons, being able to build them is great, but I’d prefer to see something where there is hundreds of unique weapons that can be acquired throughout the game. Maybe have 30 different weapons per character, all with their own stages of modification, or you could even make it like X, where items are required to create upgrades, but instead of just accessory upgrades, you level up the weapons attributes like attack and defence, as well as materia slots. Perhaps give some of the later weapons special traits that can’t be added to any other weapon.

For me, the battle system needs to be active turn based. Though some may hate FF X-2, the active battle system was awesome because it was quick, and you could create chain attacks on your opponent. I’d like to see this done again, incorporated with the ability to not only set your characters attacks, but also their movements in battle, kind of like a much simplified chess board idea. Make it so that that whenever you attack with a character, you can get them to move one space forward, back, or either to the left or right of the monster. Make it so that certain monsters can only be attacked in weaker areas, like it’s behind, sides, or close up, you could even make it so that bigger monsters require you to get on their shoulders or on their head to land certain hits. You could even have it that if you move your characters into certain formations, you can achieve special attacks.

I need heaps of side quests and mini games; bring back something like the golden Saucer, a huge theme park with tons of things to do with various rewards. At the very least, it needs to have a battle/monster arena, and an arcade with lots of mini games, maybe even put something special in it, like an old FF game.

Finally, they would need to mix up the world and characters concept designs a bit more. I’m not sure how to put this accurately, but they seem to be stuck on this clean, sleek, techno/roman/renaissance feel, or at least that’s how it’s felt to me with the past 3 releases, everything just looks the same. I’d like to see some more realistic technological elements. I hate to refer to it, but one of the things I really like about VI, and VII, is that the technology in the worlds wasn’t perfect, clean and sleek, it was more reminiscent to real world technology; dirty and imperfect, and every location wasn’t limited to it. I just think you need balance, I like the idea that a world can have an enchanted forest, or beautiful plains on one side, but then have dilapidate slums on the other.

quote:

Originally posted by Awe-inspiring Jamshed:
Finally, they would need to mix up the world and characters concept designs a bit more. I’m not sure how to put this accurately, but they seem to be stuck on this clean, sleek, techno/roman/renaissance feel, or at least that’s how it’s felt to me with the past 3 releases, everything just looks the same. I’d like to see some more realistic technological elements. I hate to refer to it, but one of the things I really like about VI, and VII, is that the technology in the worlds wasn’t perfect, clean and sleek, it was more reminiscent to real world technology; dirty and imperfect, and every location wasn’t limited to it. I just think you need balance, I like the idea that a world can have an enchanted forest, or beautiful plains on one side, but then have dilapidate slums on the other.

Exactly! My favorite part of FF7 was actually the beginning, in Midgar. It was such a unique and rich setting, and a radical change from anything that had been done before. While the rest of the game was still good, it never matched the promise of the first few hours, IMO. After you left Midgar the settings for the most part just turned into typical JRPG circling-the-world type scenes, with a shallow motivation behind most of it (duhh, let's follow Sephiroth...doh! He left before we got here!).

I got the impression back then that Square almost wanted to make an RPG set entirely in one massive city. I would still love to see something like that.

I know random battles have been a FF series staple up until... XII? X? (I never played X, so I'm not sure if they were in there, but I'm pretty sure they were). But does anyone else really like that? The FF games I have played all the way through - IV, VII, and IX - were all great, but I would have rated them even higher without the stupid random battles.

Keep in mind, this is coming from a guy whose first RPGs were Earthbound and Super Mario RPG - games where you could see your enemies and avoid them (or at least try) if you didn't want to fight.