quote:

Originally posted by Dork:

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:Aww. You really know how to make us feel special.

I think you completely missed the point by posting yet another sarcastic, caustic comment. Maybe that is the problem around here?

It's hard not to be sarcastic in the face of such a melodramatic statement as "you're gonna miss me when I'm gone..."

Some people are good at throwing their opinions out, from on high, but don't like it when someone challenges and criticizes them. I think, for a very long time, bob/Art took any critique of his opinions as a personal attack. Later, there WERE personal attacks, but the first dozen times I intervened, it was because, essentially, he felt 'picked on.' If you make a bold accusation (like the most recent one, that the lyrics from the new Hold Steady were misogynistic), you have to expect some heat for it. I never endorse personal attacks, and I took people to task as Moderator (usually via PM's) for personal attacks on bob/Art (and others), but I also think some people don't have a very thick skin when it comes to criticisms of their posts. Those people want it both ways: they claim they shouldn't be criticized for their opinions, but then they just as quickly criticize others' opinions.

I also like the comment about how we're going to accuse other people of being him. For someone who had at least three aliases on these Forums, maybe you'd think people had a reason to be suspicious. This was someone who created an alternate identity and intervened in an argument ON HIS OWN BEHALF!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: philosopherEric,

quote:

Originally posted by Art Vandelay:
I finally found an indie music board with fewer total assholes, and mods who actually try to give the board a positive, rather than a hostile and combative atmosphere. (The only reason I even still came here is because it was the best source for recommendations.)

Those of you who are jerks, have fun accusing the next four or five new people of being me. I hope for your sake you're only assholes online.

Sorry for the double-post, but I feel the need to defend the Mods and the Forums here.

This part of his post certainly makes it sound like the Mods turned a blind eye to all sorts of stuff here, and that's not only false, it also neglects to mention the NUMEROUS times I intervened on his behalf. I PM'ed members and asked them to 'play nice' and deleted comments that were questionable. But apparently the numerous times I had to intervene didn't change the fact that some people (and it wasn't always leland...there were others who were also out to get bob, didn't you know?) just didn't understand his self-recognized importance on these Forums.

It also seems ridiculous to assume that Moderators on these (or any) Forums are supposed to be concerned with maintaining a 'positive' atmosphere. It's a Forum based on CRITICISM. If you can't handle criticism, don't play the game. I'm not here to try to keep the delicate psyche of Member X from being cracked.

The majority of times that bob felt he was being personally attacked, he was being called out for things he said, and he assumed that it was because of who he was and not what he said:

Fictional Example: (more real that you'd think)

Bob: I like X.

m. leland: That X record is lame.

Bob (via PM to me): Why does leland continue to have to personally attack me?


I can't adjudicate the conflict because, unlike bob, I'm not a mind-reader. Maybe leland really did just want to hate on bob's opinions. But maybe he really hated record X. Either way, if I had to moderate every time someone criticized someone else's words or deeds or opinions on these Forums, I'd be moderating 80 hours a week. Your thin skin is not my problem. Turn that insightful eye towards the mirror and maybe you'll see something useful.

The fact that bob/Art wants to take a shot at the Moderators just reinforces my long-standing suspicion that he believed nothing was EVER his fault. It's, in part, MY fault because people don't like what he has to say. Everyone is out to get him. The moderators should have done more to protect him. As a Moderator, I resent the implication that I wasn't doing my job, because I intervened more times than I should have, often on his request. What bob wanted was for everyone to agree with him, or at least to acknowledge how valuable his opinions were. When that didn't happen, he expected the Moderators to make it so. Maybe a new Forum, where everyone kisses his feet and acknowledges his unrecognized genius will make him happy. But I'm sure someone, somewhere, will disagree with him. I hope the Moderators on that board are ready for the PM's...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: philosopherEric,

Well said, pE.

I actually had a non-derogatory comment about Bob deleted by a mod earlier this very day! Not the first time it's happened either. I mean, I've never had anything against Bob, and I've never personally attacked him that I'm aware of, but the whole "I'm leaving because you guys are mean, so there!" attitude is pretty lame. That happened once on another forum I was at, and I called the guy on it there too. If you wanna leave, just leave. Don't chastise.

quote:

Originally posted by Dork:

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:Aww. You really know how to make us feel special.

I think you completely missed the point by posting yet another sarcastic, caustic comment. Maybe that is the problem around here?

It's tough not to be sarcastic after reading Art/Bob's comments. I think he's wrong. I've had my share of disagreements with some people here, but as a whole, I think the posts are pretty civil and intelligent. These forums are far from being the "hostile and combative" environment he speaks of. I've been here for about a year and a half, and unfounded personal attacks are quite rare.

quote:

Originally posted by RavingLunatic:
"I'm leaving because you guys are mean, so there!"

I believe Richard Nixon did much the same thing, and look how that ended.

Yeah, it led to the ascendancy of Gerald Ford, our greatest president.

quote:

Originally posted by RavingLunatic:
Yeah, it led to the ascendancy of Gerald Ford, our greatest president.

(Sigh) You Americans have got everything.

(later that afternoon...) That'll teach me to be a smart-arse. I should have read the article first. You were serious, Raving. I used to read Counterpunch a lot but I think they're drawing a long bow with this one. Firstly, Ford's tenure was far too brief to draw substantive conclusions about his behaviour over a full presidential term (he was, after all, a "caretaker" president). Secondly, the article made no mention of his pardoning of Nixon, the thing that always stuck in my craw.

Still, he's your president, not mine, and I don't want to give offence. So, hopefully none taken.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Hugh Jackman's Torso,

C'mon kids...

Just between us grownups (...who really SHOULDN'T be concerned with impressing others...), let's be honest. The records by Joanna Newsom, The Knife ... and even most of TV On The Radio are virtually unlistenable. And I GUARANTEE you, you will not be listening to any of them with regularity when you are 50...

And hasn't ANYONE except onFire below (...Bless your intelligent and discerning heart!!!) bothered to consider HOW WE OPERATE by GOMEZ??? It's such an incredible, incredible album that is being sorely overlooked in favor of all these other inconsequential "flavor of the moment" bands, and records. GOMEZ is a musical TREASURE that we should cherish.

BUT....of course, the BEST record of 2006 was ZEROES AND ONES by Chicago's own ELEVENTH DREAM DAY - their first album in six years - and worth every day of the wait! I would normally cut you guys some slack on EDD, but ZEROES AND ONES was actually pretty widely - and VERY favorably - reviewed by almost all print and web media worth their salt. And it has actually been selling pretty damn well.

And... ELEVENTH DREAM DAY have been making records for almost [U]25 years[/U], not with the expectation of becoming "stars", or selling millions, but because of their clear and simple love of making and sharing their art.

THANKS to THRILL JOCKEY Records for making it possible for a band of their starture and integrity to continue to find an outlet for their work!!!

OK... Here's my TOP 14. Fire away... I can take it...

1. ELEVENTH DREAM DAY - ZEROES AND ONES
2. GOMEZ - HOW WE OPERATE
3. YO LA TENGO - I'M NOT AFRAID OF YOU AND I WILL BEAT YOUR ASS
4. TOM VEK - WE HAVE SOUND
5. THE BRAND NEW HEAVIES - GET USED TO IT
6. LUPÉ FIASCO - LUPÉ FIASCO'S FOOD AND LIQUOR
7. FORM OF ROCKET - SE PUEDE DESPIDIR A TODOS
8. THE RADIO DEPT. - PET GRIEF
9. PRINCE - 3121
10. HOT CHIP - THE WARNING
11. ARCTIC MONKEYS - WHATEVER PEOPLE SAY I AM, THAT'S WHAT I AM NOT (...despite the smothering HYPE, it's just a DAMN fine record!)
12. THE RAPTURE - PIECES OF THE PEOPLE WE LOVE
13. GUILLEMOTS - THROUGH THE WINDOW PANE
14. AEREOGRAMME - SECLUSION

... undeservedly. And I predict MCDONALD's will be the most popular "restaurant"... (ahem)...

quote:

Originally posted by Vypa:
I predict "Return to Cookie Mountain" will run away with this thing.

As for the Islands, I thought it was a very contagious, excellent debut, but it doesn't even come close to comparing to the Unicorns' "Who Will Cut Our Hair When We're Gone". Penner and Diamond both singing lead vocals was/is pop perfection.

YOU ARE RIGHT SIR.... there is a lot of "ME TOO..." (and/... "aren't I cool....") on these lists, regardless of the records' real merits...

quote:

Originally posted by general_zod:
Well, I gave a good listen to a lot of the albums on people's lists like TV on the Radio, Cat Power, The Knife, Beirut, Liars, Band of Horses, Neko Case, Destroyer and Islands, and I gotta say, I just don't get it. I guess I'm out of the indie rock loop. I suppose I still think of indie rock in terms of 1980's R.E.M. This new breed of stuff is just beyond me. Bully for everyone who likes those albums because we all gotta like something and we can't all be power pop fanatics like myself. I'm sure the albums are good, I guess I just don't have the ear for them. I'll have to listen to them again. I must be missing something. Then again, I didn't get Outkast and Kanye West ruling the lists the last few years so maybe I'm not meant to get it.

1. Destroyer's Rubies
2. Yo La Tengo - IANAOYAIWBYA
3. The Cape May - Glass Mountain Roads
4. Mountain Goats - Get Lonely
5. Robert Pollard - From a Compound Eye
6. Handsome Family - The Last Days of Wonder
7. Califone - Roots and Crowns
8. Bonnie Prince Billy - The Letting Go
9. Swan Lake - Beast Moans
10. Joanna Newsom - Ys.

20. Welcome to the Black Parade - My Chemical Romance
19. Kingdom Come - Jay-Z
18. St. Elsewhere - Gnarls Barkley
17. Hip Hop is Dead - Nas
16. Food and Liquor - Lupe Fiasco
15. FutureSex/LoveSounds - Justin Timberlake
14. Orphans - Tom Waits
13. Whatever People Say I Am, That's What I'm Not - Arctic Monkeys
12. Donuts - J Dilla
11. The Drift - Scott Walker
10. Modern Times - Bob Dylan
9. King - T.I.
8. Drum's Not Dead - Liars
7. Silent Shout - The Knife
6. Ys - Joanna Newsom
5. Fishscale - Ghostface Killah
4. Return to Cookie Mountain - TV on the Radio
3. The Crane Wife - The Decemberists
2. Hell Hath No Fury - Clipse
1. Boys and Girls in America - The Hold Steady

It sure seems like things have gotten a little more than heated here with Art/Bob's departure. I definetely see many people's points on how he departed. In some way I know that he is probably still reading all of the responses to his post and is debating on whether or not to respond, but that's his call. I dont believe I ever had any exchanges with him but each person feels and reacts a certain way for multiple reasons. In other words, I can definetely see how regulars at the forums here, and especially moderators, can feel angry and/or confused with the comments he made when he stated he was leaving.

I used to feel like sometimes personal attacks were being dished out but I guess I did need to get tougher skin and realized that if I made a negative comment about the beloved Hold Steady or how some people here don't acknowledge anything else besides indie-based rock that I would get some kind of response--and usually in the negative. Like I have said before, it goes with the territory. With that said, back to the task at hand:

quote:

Originally posted by TOPMAN:
1. ELEVENTH DREAM DAY - ZEROES AND ONES
2. GOMEZ - HOW WE OPERATE
3. YO LA TENGO - I'M NOT AFRAID OF YOU AND I WILL BEAT YOUR ASS
4. TOM VEK - WE HAVE SOUND
5. THE BRAND NEW HEAVIES - GET USED TO IT
6. LUPÉ FIASCO - LUPÉ FIASCO'S FOOD AND LIQUOR
7. FORM OF ROCKET - SE PUEDE DESPIDIR A TODOS
8. THE RADIO DEPT. - PET GRIEF
9. PRINCE - 3121
10. HOT CHIP - THE WARNING
11. ARCTIC MONKEYS - WHATEVER PEOPLE SAY I AM, THAT'S WHAT I AM NOT (...despite the smothering HYPE, it's just a DAMN fine record!)
12. THE RAPTURE - PIECES OF THE PEOPLE WE LOVE
13. GUILLEMOTS - THROUGH THE WINDOW PANE
14. AEREOGRAMME - SECLUSION

Interesting list. Haven't seen anyone place Lupe Fiasco's debut that high yet.

I don't, however, think that people have "a lot of "ME TOO..." (and/... "aren't I cool....") on these lists, regardless of the records' real merits..." If the album is good and a lot of people like it then that's just how they feel. Yeah maybe albums like The Knife's won't age well, but then again maybe they will. Some albums are really just that good--like Joanna Newsom's sophomore album or The Decemberists' newest--that a lot of people will like, and not just because everyone else likes it, but because of its actual quality.

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:

quote:

Originally posted by Dork:

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:Aww. You really know how to make us feel special.

I think you completely missed the point by posting yet another sarcastic, caustic comment. Maybe that is the problem around here?

It's tough not to be sarcastic after reading Art/Bob's comments. I think he's wrong. I've had my share of disagreements with some people here, but as a whole, I think the posts are pretty civil and intelligent. These forums are far from being the "hostile and combative" environment he speaks of. I've been here for about a year and a half, and unfounded personal attacks are quite rare.

Of course, but why do you need to keep giving him a hard time about it even after he's (rashly and falsely) said he's going away and not coming back? Laugh it off, and don't take it too seriously. If you want to disagree with him then make sure your post is a little less aggressive, maybe put a few more of those ultra-rare EG75 "LOLs" in to lighten the mood. Why bother being sarcastic in the first place, and who really cares if someone has the wrong idea about The Hold Steady? There are more gentle ways to have a discussion, even if they make your post look a little shallow rather than heavy and serious.

There are going to be sensitive people on every forum, just like there will always be people to antagonize them -- whether they mean to or not. But almost everyone has something potentially important to contribute, and I think responses like L. R. William Spencer's miss a big point: this forum's general atmosphere is one of quiet, intellectual discussion, not vengeful flaming or exclusivity. The "Get out, good riddance" attitude is just unnecessary, because no matter how obnoxious someone is about one thing, they're bound to have something to say on a different subject, maybe even something fascinating. Again, laugh it off. Everyone has their bad days when they go soap opera and post something that will seem funny to them in six months.

Maybe I'm just being naive, but meh, I could go into 2007 worse ways -- such as being sarcastic and carrying a grudge.

quote:

Originally posted by Sideshow Bob:

quote:

Originally posted by RavingLunatic:
Yeah, it led to the ascendancy of Gerald Ford, our greatest president.

(Sigh) You Americans have got everything.

(later that afternoon...) That'll teach me to be a smart-arse. I should have read the article first. You were serious, Raving. I used to read Counterpunch a lot but I think they're drawing a long bow with this one. Firstly, Ford's tenure was far too brief to draw substantive conclusions about his behaviour over a full presidential term (he was, after all, a "caretaker" president). Secondly, the article made no mention of his pardoning of Nixon, the thing that always stuck in my craw.

Still, he's your president, not mine, and I don't want to give offence. So, hopefully none taken.

Well, believe me, Cockburn is no fan of Ford or any president for that matter. I thought it was a pretty funny article. I'm certain he wrote it to piss off moderate liberals and to point out how much he despises American presidents in general. Oftentimes he'll pick out some Republican that's not that bad to praise in order to point out how atrociously Democrats are behaving. That's pretty much what he's doing here, too, I think.

quote:

Originally posted by Dork:

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:

quote:

Originally posted by Dork:

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:Aww. You really know how to make us feel special.

I think you completely missed the point by posting yet another sarcastic, caustic comment. Maybe that is the problem around here?

It's tough not to be sarcastic after reading Art/Bob's comments. I think he's wrong. I've had my share of disagreements with some people here, but as a whole, I think the posts are pretty civil and intelligent. These forums are far from being the "hostile and combative" environment he speaks of. I've been here for about a year and a half, and unfounded personal attacks are quite rare.

Of course, but why do you need to keep giving him a hard time about it even after he's (rashly and falsely) said he's going away and not coming back? Laugh it off, and don't take it too seriously. If you want to disagree with him then make sure your post is a little less aggressive, maybe put a few more of those ultra-rare EG75 "LOLs" in to lighten the mood. Why bother being sarcastic in the first place, and who really cares if someone has the wrong idea about The Hold Steady? There are more gentle ways to have a discussion, even if they make your post look a little shallow rather than heavy and serious.

There are going to be sensitive people on every forum, just like there will always be people to antagonize them -- whether they mean to or not. But almost everyone has something potentially important to contribute, and I think responses like L. R. William Spencer's miss a big point: this forum's general atmosphere is one of quiet, intellectual discussion, not vengeful flaming or exclusivity. The "Get out, good riddance" attitude is just unnecessary, because no matter how obnoxious someone is about one thing, they're bound to have something to say on a different subject, maybe even something fascinating. Again, laugh it off. Everyone has their bad days when they go soap opera and post something that will seem funny to them in six months.

Maybe I'm just being naive, but meh, I could go into 2007 worse ways -- such as being sarcastic and carrying a grudge.

I understand what you mean about my post, but you have to understand that my one and only experience with "Bob" was going onto this thread and seeing everything happen, almost real time. So I really don't have much else to go by when it comes to how important he was.

quote:

Originally posted by Dork:
Of course, but why do you need to keep giving him a hard time about it even after he's (rashly and falsely) said he's going away and not coming back? Laugh it off, and don't take it too seriously. If you want to disagree with him then make sure your post is a little less aggressive, maybe put a few more of those ultra-rare EG75 "LOLs" in to lighten the mood. Why bother being sarcastic in the first place, and who really cares if someone has the wrong idea about The Hold Steady? There are more gentle ways to have a discussion, even if they make your post look a little shallow rather than heavy and serious.

There are going to be sensitive people on every forum, just like there will always be people to antagonize them -- whether they mean to or not. But almost everyone has something potentially important to contribute, and I think responses like L. R. William Spencer's miss a big point: this forum's general atmosphere is one of quiet, intellectual discussion, not vengeful flaming or exclusivity. The "Get out, good riddance" attitude is just unnecessary, because no matter how obnoxious someone is about one thing, they're bound to have something to say on a different subject, maybe even something fascinating. Again, laugh it off. Everyone has their bad days when they go soap opera and post something that will seem funny to them in six months.

Maybe I'm just being naive, but meh, I could go into 2007 worse ways -- such as being sarcastic and carrying a grudge.

I see your point, Dork, and it's probably the high road. But I, personally, felt the need to defend the Moderators because, well, I am one.

As to the point you make about trying to temper your comments if someone is sensitive, I couldn't disagree more. ericg75 and MANY others on these Forums tried to interact with bob in a myriad of ways, and in my estimation he always took things as a personal attack. Do I care if he doesn't 'get' the Hold Steady? No. But if you post bullshit on a public Forum, shouldn't someone have the right to call you on it, regardless of how sensitive you are?
I don't think someone should get a free pass to say whatever they want simply because they've got some weird paranoia about how everyone is out to get them.

My comments about this matter, by the way, are not meant to 'bait' a response from the departed bob. I bear the guy no ill will, personally, but I do think he needs to do a little self-evaluation, and stop hoisting the blame on everyone else.

Finally got round to making my list:

1. "White Bread, Black Beer" -- Scritti Politti
2. "Modern Times" -- Bob Dylan
3. "The Loon" -- Tapes 'n' Tapes
4. "Drum's Not Dead" -- Liars
5. "The Greatest" -- Cat Power

6. "Gulag Orkestar" -- Beirut
7. "Whatever People Say..." -- Arctic Monkeys
8. "'Sno Angel Like You" -- Howe Gelb
9. "A Vintage Burden" -- Charalambides
10. "The Life Pursuit" -- Belle & Sebastian

11. "Trials of Van Ocupanther" -- Midlake
12. "He Poos Clouds" -- Final Fantasy
13. "Voices of Animals and Men" -- The Young Knives
14. "Future Women" -- The M's
15. "Back in Black" -- Amy Winehouse

16. "Pieces of the People We Love" -- The Rapture
17. "To Find Me Gone" -- Vetiver
18. "The Warning" -- Hot Chip
19. "Let's Kill the Summer" -- The Singleman Affair
20. "Not Saying/Just Saying" -- Shout Out Out Out


Single of the Year: "Over and Over" -- Hot Chip