Originally posted by Marlon: To me, I'll like Sufjan more, the less calculating he becomes, less airbrushing he uses on his songs.
Well Beethoven was calculated too, as was Amadeus. Does that mean they aren't genuises. Nor did they create new genres. What these composers did was take what they had to work with and make it more wonderful than anyone ever thought possible. To me, that's what Sufjan did with folk music/indie music.
Originally posted by mark f: P.S. - Harumph! Now you're comparing Sufjan to Ludie and Wolfie?!?
No. I was merely pointing out that geniuses don't need to create new genres or be non-calculating or abstract in their songwriting to be considered geniuses.
OK, but my point is that I don't think anybody here really hates Sufjan. It's just that sometimes it seems like having the opinion that "he's there, he's nice, I'll listen up to a point..." is considered blasphemy. I thought BRMC's Howl blew Sufjan's recent albums out of the water, but now you'll want to stone me for the above-mentioned crime.
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Posts: 12874 | Location: Behind the Orange Curtain | Registered: 14 May 2004
Originally posted by mark f: It's just that sometimes it seems like having the opinion that "he's there, he's nice, I'll listen up to a point..." is considered blasphemy.
I just think some people are closed-minded when it comes to music. If a guy sings about God and his faith, some people will automatically find reasons to critisize him. And honestly, I do think that has A LOT do with why some indie folks refuse to give him any credit.
Sufjan's music has a generally positive message, and indie snobs just hate that because, as we all should know, indie music is not supposed to be positive, that's what pop music is for.
These same people that hate Sufjan for singing about God would hail him as the next greatest thing if he wrote a record that bashed Bush and the government. Guaranteed.
Originally posted by mark f: I thought BRMC's Howl blew Sufjan's recent albums out of the water
I'm totally there with you. Howl is the best BRMC album yet and I've never gotten anything substantial from Sufjan. I liked the new Danielson and the Knights Of The New Crusade is totally listenable.
________________________________________________________ "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - Hunter S. Thompson tinymixtapes.com / The Skinny / PopMatters
Originally posted by hudson: I just think some people are closed-minded when it comes to music. If a guy sings about God and his faith, some people will automatically find reasons to critisize him. And honestly, I do think that has A LOT do with why some indie folks refuse to give him any credit.
Sufjan's music has a generally positive message, and indie snobs just hate that because, as we all should know, indie music is not supposed to be positive, that's what pop music is for.
These same people that hate Sufjan for singing about God would hail him as the next greatest thing if he wrote a record that bashed Bush and the government. Guaranteed.
I don't remember anybody saying anything about the religious content in Sufjan Stevens' songs being the reason they didn't like him. He could sing about chicks, Satan, Bush, or cheeseburgers and I'd still find him dull.
And is it so inconceivable that some of us don't find the guy's music to be the best thing ever, we must be snobs?
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Posts: 5277 | Location: Michigan | Registered: 19 June 2005
Originally posted by ericg75: I don't remember anybody saying anything about the religious content in Sufjan Stevens' songs being the reason they didn't like him.
That's because admitting that would show you as a shallow, narrow-minded person. I don't think anyone wants to be drawing that kind of attention to themselves.
The whole questioning-the-motives-of-others thing accounts for about a third of the conversation here, and I think it's all vacuous. Please everyone: stop questioning the motives of others as to why they like or dislike something. And that includes Pitchfork. There is no way to know anyone's motives, and it's unnecessarily provocative to accuse others of posturing. Believe it or not, other people can dislike music you like and like music you dislike because it actually sounds different to them than it does to you, and not because of any ulterior motives.
Posts: 3949 | Location: NE Indiana | Registered: 14 April 2005
You're right RL. Truth is, I don't know for a fact that anyone at mc rules Sufjan out because of religious content. It's just a hunch. And I certainly didn't mean to point fingers at anyone in particular, just to clarify.
Alright, so as not to hijack this thread any further and get on the moderator's bad sides, I'll bow out of this discussion. Unless someone wants to start it up somewhere else.
Originally posted by hudson: Alright, so as not to hijack this thread any further and get on the moderator's bad sides, I'll bow out of this discussion. Unless someone wants to start it up somewhere else.
At the risk of speaking on behalf of mark and pE, nobody who's been particpating in this discussion is on any moderator's bad side. With a very few exceptions, this has been one of the most interesting and civil discussions we've had and I'd be very happy to see it continue. I've been trying to think of an appropriate topic to frame it, but it's not come to mind. If anybody can think of one, I'd like to see it.
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Posts: 1584 | Location: Bloomington, IN | Registered: 23 May 2004
Yikes. A whole page has gone by since I last checked in here.
quote:
OPB Yay: Sufjan hasn't even run a race yet. Why is he trying to jump hurdles?
Sorry - in that post I was pretty reckless with the metaphors. The hurdles I was talking about are the same as the problems mentioned in the quote below: I V
quote:
I was about to offer up the idea that creativity is not sprung from a problem, but instead from a question. You use both words but I'm not sure which one you take more to heart (or to mind). I think we might be a little off-center, here, on the problem vs. question thing. That's just me. I think once we straighten that out, you might go from "almost" agreeing with me to just agreeing with me. Might.
For me, a question is just a specific kind of problem. Because (again, in my way of thinking)questions and answers are framed in words, while problems and solutions need not be. But I think in that post I jumped back and forth with little heed for consistency.
I think maybe we should end the Sufjan conversation, which I freely admit to being part of starting. It's only going to get ugly, and it's not really getting anywhere. People who didn't like him before still don't like him, right?
Posts: 1376 | Location: Valparaiso, IN | Registered: 01 July 2006
Will someone please start a Sufjan thread. The strength and duration of this discussion of his music is clear proof of his importance but it seems to have taken over this particular forum which is supposed to be "Best Records of 2006" as I recall.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: gomad361,
Posts: 119 | Location: Oakland | Registered: 24 January 2006
Originally posted by gomad361: Will someone please start a Sufjan thread.
There are a couple in the Indie Rock section. Grab one.
Thanks eric but my feelings for Sufjan and his music are quite untroubled and without need of argument or affirmation. I'm more interested in nathanielkt's Akron/Family post and its ilk.
Posts: 119 | Location: Oakland | Registered: 24 January 2006
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