quote:

Marlon
Enthusiast
Posted 19 August 2006 06:13 PM
Speaking of time signatures. You won't find anything crazier than some of these 'death metal' bands and their time signatures. MegaDeath's stuff is just off the wall, I can't stand it, but I am somehow curious as in morbidly curious, I gess, when it comes to the musicianship of these guys like MegaDeath. They are good but awful at the same time.

Yeah, I didn't post earlier but was thinking the same thing...Tool gets pretty nasty in this department also, doing a lot of 9/8 and 13/12 type stuff, though musically, while still hard, hard rocking, I find them infinitely more palatable than the Death Metal contingent.

quote:

Originally posted by philosopherEric:
Sufjan's sound is a mix of a lot of different styles, none of which is some groundbreaking new genre.

And his amazing ability to mix those different styles to create his own unique, wonderful sound is what sets him apart from all the other musical acts out there. It's also what makes him a bonifide musical genius.

It takes a genius to be able to mix styles and genres to create a unique sound. Take Frank Zappa for example.

I believe that Zappa has already been roasted here. "Geniuses" may be too advanced for their own good. I was wondering...does it take a genius to hear a genius? Peace.

quote:

Originally posted by mark f:
I believe that Zappa has already been roasted here. "Geniuses" may be too advanced for their own good. I was wondering...does it take a genius to hear a genius? Peace.

I'm not a Zappa fan, but I appreciate his musical accomplishments.

And yes markf, it most certainly does take genius to hear a genius.

I remember reading an article in one of my Guitar Player magazines about 10 years ago or so. Steve Vai (the guitar nerd's equivalent of Lance Armstrong), was working on this project where he was going to redivide the frequencies in an octave, where instead of 12 tones, he'd have some other number, thus creating a whole new system of music.

My point?

Making music that's different and unusual isn't that hard. Making music that people like, and will continue to like for decades to come, is the chore.

quote:

I remember reading an article in one of my Guitar Player magazines about 10 years ago or so. Steve Vai (the guitar nerd's equivalent of Lance Armstrong), was working on this project where he was going to redivide the frequencies in an octave, where instead of 12 tones, he'd have some other number, thus creating a whole new system of music.

Sorry to burst your (or Vai's) bubble, but that idea is oooooold news. Harry Partch was working with microtones of 43 notes (and more) to the octave as far back as the 40s. Even he wasn't the first to think of that. Theorists have been dividing up the octave in many different ways as long as music theory has been extant.

quote:

Making music that's different and unusual isn't that hard. Making music that people like, and will continue to like for decades to come, is the chore.

Musical concepts that are truly original are verrry few and far between. I like my music to succeed on both levels - for it to appeal emotionally and intellectually. Sometimes the intellectual hurdles take some work on the listening end for one to really be affected by the music, but I find it's well worth it.

That said, I agree to the exten that I believe ideas can't make the music succeed alone.

I didn't mean to imply that Vai invented that concept. Obviously it's been around awhile. African music, for instance, uses a 5 note scale. I was just trying to illustrate that doing something different isn't the difficult part in making great music. Steve Vai's a shining example of that.

I think the best argument against Sufjan, if you can come up with one that sticks, is that his music, and even himself in interviews, can be bland and boring-- ambitious and traditional in approach, but ultimately elementary and simple and slightly contemporary in execution.

So where, I ask, is the new ground this guy is supposedly breaking? Where is the revelaton? Yeah, he can tell a great story, but where is his talent, really, other than creating lilt sounds with gospel-like melodies on non-gospel instruments?

He's so prolific a composer (and arranger-- people forget that he's a better arranger than anything else) that you'd think he'd be able to do lots of different things in different ways. But he can't. He can only do him and HIS sounds. Yes, he's admirable for doing all of this work and research himself, for being a unique singer/songwriter, but putting onesself on the straight path of 50 states or the Zodiac or what have you actually restricts instead of encourages creativity.

And that's why Sufjan isn't so hot. Plus, his music is slowly but surely becoming lifestyle commodified by Paste-reading, indie yuppies.

EDIT: Yet, to be fair, the absolute worst accusations you can lob at the guy's songwriting is "bland" and "safe." Not too shabby when you think about it.

quote:

Yes, he's admirable for doing all of this work and research himself, for being a unique singer/songwriter, but putting onesself on the straight path of 50 states or the Zodiac or what have you actually restricts instead of encourages creativity.

I almost agree, but you need to start defining a direction to take sometime. There needs to be some way to narrow one's options down - like setting up hurdles to jump over creatively. IMO creativity lies in finding a previously unseen solution to an old problem. But half the battle of that can be in reformulating the problem - asking the question in a different way, so to speak.

I haven't decided yet whether I think the 50 states project is a good way to re-ask the question. It seems as though sheer audacity is about the only thing it has going for it. And I think I saw in an interview somewhere that Sufjan himself admitted that the stuff he's been writing so far is really just safe adult/contemporary/indie whatever.

quote:

Originally posted by Marlon:
Speaking of time signatures. You won't find anything crazier than some of these 'death metal' bands and their time signatures. MegaDeath's stuff is just off the wall, I can't stand it, but I am somehow curious as in morbidly curious, I gess, when it comes to the musicianship of these guys like MegaDeath. They are good but awful at the same time.

I beg to differ. Carnatic classical musicians routinely show their ability to play with very complex rhythms - for example a 14 beat cycle split 3 1/2, 2 1/2, 2, 1 1/2, 4 1/2.

quote:

Originally posted by vitunkrapula:

quote:

Yes, he's admirable for doing all of this work and research himself, for being a unique singer/songwriter, but putting onesself on the straight path of 50 states or the Zodiac or what have you actually restricts instead of encourages creativity.

I almost agree, but you need to start defining a direction to take sometime.

I don't know if you guys read the interview with Stephen Merritt on Pitchfork a week or so ago, but he talked specifically about how narrowing his options makes it so much easier for him to write a song. I don't think the 50-states project in any way restricts creativity. On the contrary, I think that having the states project to anchor himself to probable increases his creative output because he doesn't have to agonize about which general direction he should start towards in writing his albums and songs.

I'm a little surprised that people here seem to think Sufjan's output is really narrow. I agree that both the states albums and The Avalanche are really similar, but Seven Swans, even though it was relatively stripped-down, was something different, even different from the more acoustic songs on the states albums, I would argue. And remember we're only talking about a 3 or 4-year period here. I don't know if you guys have noticed, but over that same span, the Shins released exactly one (10-song) album, as did Modest Mouse and many others. Sufjan has done 4 albums, with 2 of them over 20 songs and 70 minutes long, and the 15-song Michigan not far behind.

If you go back and listen to Enjoy Your Rabbit and A Sun Came, you'll see that both those albums are significantly different than what Sufjan has done since then. And remember this is all since the year 2000. I don't think we can really criticize Sufjan for a narrow songwriting palette.

I actually wish he'd do more albums like Seven Swans, where he ditched the symphonic stuff. That's his best album to me. I like the orchestral stuff well enough, but I think he does his best work when he sticks with banjo, guitar, and piano.

I have not posted for a good while - too busy really, but still using the site for info. This whole Sufjan thing........wow, talk about backlash.

Anyway, my year so far:

I find myself relying more on this forum than ever before for music - I have moved interstate and lost my old campanion, 3RRR, along the way. Therefore, most of my picks this year are nothing new. Regardless, I have a few which I think are very very good, and yes, they would have made the top ten of last year, just not top three.

1. Tapes 'n' Tapes - The Loon. I know its very similar to Arcade-Parade, but hey, I play it loud and it feels great.
2. Howe Gelb. The warmth of Howe's voice does it for me
3. Ali Farka Toure - Savane. It's not worth 95, but it is a great blues record and one that will be here come December.
4. The Drones - Millers Daughter. I have a thing for the Drones, but then again, I think everybody should. Best live act out there, and this b-sides collection is better than most bands best.
5. Comets on Fire - Avatar. US equivalent of the Drones.
6. TV on the Radio - Return to Cookie Mtn. I'm not in love with them like a lot here are, but I understand the live show is brilliant, and this record is at least different to most out there.
7. Gomez - How we Operate. One of the most consistent bands on the planet. No body here talks about their first two albums in the same reverance as NMH or Modest Mouse etc, but these were the albums that changed my life.
8. Liars - Drums not Dead. The Second track reminds me of the music being played during the opening scene of irreversible. Totally evil music. (side note - singer is another Melbourne boy)
9. Jeff Lang and Chris Whitley - Desolation Blues. Vernon Little once said "The slide guitar understands your troubles", and no one plays the slide guitar like Jeff Lang
10. You Am i - Convicts. Rock in its most basic form, done well, by a living legend.

Silent Shout, Destroyers Rubies, The Trials of Van Occupanther, We Shall Overcome and No Bones are all up there as well, and could easily get into the top ten any other day of the week.

Finally - I went to the record shop yesterday and saw a new Outkast album - where the hell did this come from? Is it really a new album, and is it out in the States - I assume not seeing no one has mentioned it.

Well, the new Lambchop album is a classic. "What's wrong with that?" indeed.
Good man Kurt...

quote:

Originally posted by hudson:

quote:

Originally posted by philosopherEric:
Sufjan's sound is a mix of a lot of different styles, none of which is some groundbreaking new genre.

And his amazing ability to mix those different styles to create his own unique, wonderful sound is what sets him apart from all the other musical acts out there. It's also what makes him a bonifide musical genius.

It takes a genius to be able to mix styles and genres to create a unique sound. Take Frank Zappa for example.

You lose me as soon as you call Zappa a genius. But I think, as a testament to Sufjan's ability, it's fair to see that his pastiche of styles doesn't feel 'fake'. For my money, it just feels like he's trying to show how amazing his range is by putting everything and the kitchen sink into his records and songs. I guess that's where I hear prententious while others hear genius. Maybe his head is just so filled with sounds, he HAS to do it, but I just don't see him as a Brian Wilson-type genius.

quote:

It takes a genius to be able to mix styles and genres to create a unique sound. Take Frank Zappa for example.

If I were feeling reckless enough to toss around the g-word like that, I would say that it takes a genius to CREATE a new genre, not to mix and match.

quote:

Well, the new Lambchop album is a classic. "What's wrong with that?" indeed.
Good man Kurt...

Can't wait for Tuesday so I can pick this up. I wish I'd ordered it online so I would have my copy by now. I love the tracks I've heard so far, and assume that if it isn't my favorite album of the year, it will be darn close to the top.

quote:

Originally posted by Backcountry:
[M]y year so far:

I find myself relying more on this forum than ever before for music - I have moved interstate and lost my old campanion, 3RRR, along the way. Therefore, most of my picks this year are nothing new. Regardless, I have a few which I think are very very good, and yes, they would have made the top ten of last year, just not top three.

1. Tapes 'n' Tapes - The Loon. I know its very similar to Arcade-Parade, but hey, I play it loud and it feels great.
2. Howe Gelb. The warmth of Howe's voice does it for me
3. Ali Farka Toure - Savane. It's not worth 95, but it is a great blues record and one that will be here come December.
4. The Drones - Millers Daughter. I have a thing for the Drones, but then again, I think everybody should. Best live act out there, and this b-sides collection is better than most bands best.
5. Comets on Fire - Avatar. US equivalent of the Drones.
6. TV on the Radio - Return to Cookie Mtn. I'm not in love with them like a lot here are, but I understand the live show is brilliant, and this record is at least different to most out there.
7. Gomez - How we Operate. One of the most consistent bands on the planet. No body here talks about their first two albums in the same reverance as NMH or Modest Mouse etc, but these were the albums that changed my life.
8. Liars - Drums not Dead. The Second track reminds me of the music being played during the opening scene of irreversible. Totally evil music. (side note - singer is another Melbourne boy)
9. Jeff Lang and Chris Whitley - Desolation Blues. Vernon Little once said "The slide guitar understands your troubles", and no one plays the slide guitar like Jeff Lang
10. You Am i - Convicts. Rock in its most basic form, done well, by a living legend.

Silent Shout, Destroyers Rubies, The Trials of Van Occupanther, We Shall Overcome and No Bones are all up there as well, and could easily get into the top ten any other day of the week.

Great list. I'm pleased to see Midlake and Ali Farka Toure on it. Both are great -- and, especially in Midlake's case, sorely underexposed and underappreciated -- albums.

quote:

Originally posted by vitunkrapula:
I almost agree, but you need to start defining a direction to take sometime. There needs to be some way to narrow one's options down - like setting up hurdles to jump over creatively.

Sufjan hasn't even run a race yet. Why is he trying to jump hurdles?

He's a young artist, he comes off young, he acts young, yet he puts limits on himself? Jack White is another musician (from Michigan as well) that purposefully limits himself. I don't think that's so bad because a) he usually limits himself only in technology and b) he's been playing music for a LONG TIME, longer than Sufjan probably, and comes off as an old soul rather than coming off sheepish and innocent like Sufjan does.

In my opinion, someone Jack White is more talented than Sufjan. Why do I think that? Because Jack White's knowledge of music history is obviously head and shoulders above Sufjan's. Because of that, Jack White knows his place and can party with it. Sufjan has made it known in interviews that he's very much an isolated guy, making him another entry in the indie-rock tradition: he lives and creates in isolated ways. He spent weeks in the Brooklyn public library getting inspiration for "Illinois." He recorded many of his "Illinois" songs in dark rooms. Have you read his "My Life in Music" in SPIN? It made absolutely no sense. It was just random things he picked up from thrift stories and record stores knowing nothing about the music. His music is not extroverted is what I'm trying to get at here.

quote:

IMO creativity lies in finding a previously unseen solution to an old problem. But half the battle of that can be in reformulating the problem - asking the question in a different way, so to speak.

I was about to offer up the idea that creativity is not sprung from a problem, but instead from a question. You use both words but I'm not sure which one you take more to heart (or to mind). I think we might be a little off-center, here, on the problem vs. question thing. That's just me. I think once we straighten that out, you might go from "almost" agreeing with me to just agreeing with me. Might.

quote:

Originally posted by Yay!:
In my opinion, someone Jack White is more talented than Sufjan. Why do I think that? Because Jack White's knowledge of music history is obviously head and shoulders above Sufjan's.

Would you think that if you hadn't read interviews and other stuff about Sufjan and White? I think when you're assessing the musical talent of someone, it's best to look at their music.

I think the whole "genius" conversation is really boring. It's basically a conversation about semantics, and those are always lame.

What constitutes a genius in an art form that doesn't take a genius to become great in? Bob Dylan is considered a genius, but his skill on the instrument (guitar, piano, harmonica) isn't anything close to being considered genius. His songs are pretty much basic in structure, same goes for Neil Young, the Stones etc. But what people really dig about 'em is that they convey their soul in song that affects us all. The problem with Sufjan is that his music is too calculating which comes across as a young talented brat. To me, his music has no soul, it's not "In the momment" created. His songs, albums are too played with, too airbrushed, too overworked, too many tracks upon tracks.

To me, a genius is someone who can parlay something so simple (basic song structure) into something so infectious upon the listener, something that has heart and soul. Sufjan's music lacks heart and soul cause it is way too overworked and to 'well' thought out and that is what music is NOT suppose to be about. That is why we all love Kurt Cobain, the Clash etc. Their music is "in the momment created", it's old soul, it has a pulse.

To me, I'll like Sufjan more, the less calculating he becomes, less airbrushing he uses on his songs.