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Jedi |
I haven't heard a whole lot of 60s brit folk (Could you name some names so I can fix that?), but I have a hunch that they didn't generally write 5-7 minute songs in odd time signatures like 5/8, 7/4, etc. In his 50 states work thus far, I would say that Sufjan also has a big debt to minimalists like Steve Reich (especially Music for 18 Musicians) and Terry Riley. So far in his career, Sufjan has made his bread and butter on a kind of pastiche style. He relies on a concept (ex: Year of the Rabbit) to limit the styles he works on/borrows from. He's very good at doing that, but he really isn't all that original. But I must admit that I haven't heard anyone else (before or after S.S.) who has put that particular combination of aesthetics onto one platter at once. |
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"Forum Moderator" Jedi |
Good ears, v., though I would argue that Stevens arragements owe much more to late Philip Glass than to earlier Reich and Riley, specifically, the Glass' 1989 work 1000 Airplanes on the Roof. "Come on Feel the Illinois!" is probably my favorite track from Illinois and the resemblance to the title track of the Glass album is striking. Now Playing: WTTS-FM |
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Jedi |
True - I knew I was forgetting somebody in the list of who's who in minimalism...
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"Forum Moderator" Super Bad-Ass Jedi |
Bert Jansch, Nick Drake, Donovan's less psychedelic stuff, to name a few. I'll admit that they usually stay under the 5 minute mark, though the length of Sufjan Stevens' songs (or anyone's) aren't a selling point for me. Some of my all time favorite songs fall short of of the 3 minute mark. As for the weird time signatures...I don't know. There are a few notable classic songs with oddball time signatures (Pink Floyd's "Money" being the most famous), but I'm not so sure that avoiding a 4/4 time signature really equals musical genius for me. As a musician, I sort of appreciate it, but as a listener, I can't say it really does much for me. ----- Stay gold, Ponyboy. Stay gold. |
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Jedi |
I'm not trying to sell him to you or anything. Just pointing out a few differences, as well as highlighting some common ground with the minimalists. And I never meant to suggest that odd time signatures = Musical Genius. However, you do have more options when you aren't restricted to 4/4. More options aren't always better though. S.S. is actually a pretty good case of that - it seems like he has too many options he wants to pursue, and ends up never really finding an identity of his own. I could be wrong of course - maybe that adult indie lite stuff is his inner soul. kinda doubt it though. |
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Enthusiast |
Just heard the J Dilla - very late of me but a case of better late than never. Thanks to all those here boosting Margot & The Nuclear So And So's - excellent. Tom Ze has zoomed back up in my estimation of late - the story so far...
1 Thom Yorke Eraser 2 Midlake The Trials Of Van Occupanther 3 Bruce Springsteen We Shall Overcome : The Seeger Sessions 4 Liars Drum's Not Dead 5 Tom Ze Estudando o Pagode 6 The Fiery Furnaces Bitter Tea 7 J Dilla Donuts 8 Augie March Moo, You Bloody Choir 9 The Knife Silent Shout 10 Margot & The Nuclear So And So's The Dust Of Retreat 11 Evangelicals So Gone 12 Jim Noir Tower Of Love 13 Destroyer Destroyer's Rubies 14 Tsuji Ayano CALENDAR CALENDAR 15 The Envelopes Demon 16 Boris Pink 17 Camera Obscura Let's Get Out Of This Country 18 Hotchip The Warning 19 Islands Return To The Sea 20 Juana Molina Son 21 Thee More Shallows Monkey vs Shark 22 Victory At Sea All Your Things Are Gone 23 Ms. John Soda Notes And The Like 24 Gnarls Barkley St. Elsewhere 25 Band Of Horses Everything All The Time 26 Cheikh Lô Lamp Fall 27 The Flaming Lips At War With The Mystics 28 Neil Young Living With War 29 Serena-Maneesh Serena-Maneesh 30 Beirut Gulag Orkestar |
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"Forum Moderator" Jedi |
Funny. Your return was a big letdown for me, too. Apparently, The Wieve is the only one entitled to an opinion about Sufjan, and his is right. Disagreement leads to name-calling. I said that there was nothing on Illinois that I hadn't heard before, and I'm sticking to it. Sufjan's sound is a mix of a lot of different styles, none of which is some groundbreaking new genre. If you really wanna play fanboy games, I'll tell you that I've seen Sufjan live four times. I bought A Sun Came when it first came out, and then I bought it AGAIN when it was reissued. I think Seven Swans is great. And I think the states records are overrated by a large degree. I also think that all people who make blanket statements about how all people of a certain type are idiots should consider what the pot said to the kettle. |
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Enthusiast |
The Brit Folk scene of the 60's was pretty much a circle of friends who either fell under the 'Witch Season' record management (what the Court and Spark named one of their albums after) or were part of the scene. These artists were the Incredible String Band, Fairport Convention which gave us Richard Thompson and Sandy Denny, you had Linda Thompson, John Martyn, Nick Drake, Bert Jansch, Vashti Bunyan, etc. I am not going to argue the levels in talents, who has more and who has less, when it comes to Sufjan vs these legendary genre, sound creating artists who created the Brit Folk scene but I can guarantee you, Sufjan Stevens couldn't hold a candle to the talent level of the likes of Richard Thompson and his Fairport Convention days, that guys is one of the guitar greats of all time. I don't know what 'song length' has to do with legitimizing ones talent but I can tell you right now Fairport Convention had songs over 10 minutes, like ' A Sailors Life' from Unhalfbricking which is 11:08 long. 'Time Signatures'??? are we getting a little bit anal here? Who cares about time signatures, just give me a damn good chorus, hook, some great guitar and a voice that doesn't bloody irritate me like Sufjan's emo, twee, limp wristed voice that he has. I'm sorry but until Sufjan puts some bloody hair on that wimpy voice of his, I ain't ever gonna buy a record by this guy regardless of his many time signatures. BTW, you want a great record, buy Fairport Convention's Unhalfbricking, if the tune 'Cajun Woman' don't rock your soul, you don't have one. If you are not impressed with skill on that album, then you don't know music. Fairport Convention is one of the most revered bands in music. Also check out John Martyn's 'Solid Air'. You may recognize Solid Air from the little write up in Nick Drake's Way To Blue. It was Martyn's tune that he dedicated to his good friend Nick Drake. Sufjan more talented than Drake? Give me a break. |
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"Forum Moderator" Jedi |
I've also seen comparisons of Sufjan and Nick Drake. I've also seen him compared to Elliott Smith. I think both of those comparisons are way off: Stevens has a very different sound than either artist.
If I were asked to choose betwee Suf and Nick Drake, though, I would do what Marlon would do and pick Nick. But that's probably just me trying to be so indie cool that I'm putting on airs. |
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"Forum Moderator" Jedi |
From the Sufjan interviews I've read, it sounds like Benjamin Britten is a bigger influence than anyone on his music. |
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"Forum Moderator" Jedi |
This is where I differ from a lot of people. I really dig songs with weird time signatures or, better yet, frequent changes in time. I think the Dismemberment Plan pulls of the weird time sig thing better than anyone, which is one of the reasons I've got big hopes for Travis Morrison's upcoming solo album. I know that math-rock is supposed to involve a lot of odd time signatures and changes, but I've never really heard much. I've heard Tortoise described as math rock, but I thought Millions Now Living... was unbearably boring. Battles is pretty good. Anybody here know some good math rock? |
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Jedi |
Look Marlon - I'm not on either side. I could give a rat's ass about this. I was just mentioning some elements that I thought set Sufjan's music apart from 60's British folk. I wasn't comparing anything quality wise. If you don't believe me please go re-read the post. Now if those elements are in fact quite similar, and I wasn't aware, by all means call me on it. But don't say you're not going to argue and then say that S.S. can't hold a candle to the Fairport Convention. You just contradicted yourself. The song length thing was from me thinking mainly about Nick Drake's music (but it also holds even more so for Vashti Bunyan), and the things that distinguish it from SS's. I think song length is actually a pretty important factor in music. IMO, writing a 1 - 3 minute piece is very different from tackling an 8-20 minute epic. 4-7 minutes is somewhere in the middle, but I admit the distinction is fairly blurry in that range. So I was using that as a discriminating factor because of the difference in songwriting approach, not because of any inherent difference in quality between song lengths. Capisce? So neither long, short nor average length songs are inherently better than others. Which is one of the reasons I chose such a criterion! Because I was trying to avoid stupid hero-worship bickering! I also never said or meant to insinuate in any way that either time signatures or song lengths could "legitimize one's talent," whatever the fuck that means. This message has been edited. Last edited by: V, |
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Jedi |
It's nice to see somebody liked Donuts besides me... I thought it was fantastic. "Violence, she solved everything" |
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Jedi |
Hell yeah. It's got my #1 spot right now. |
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Jedi |
Sweet... I've been waiting for the Shining, I actually started a session about it but nobody posted ...  "Violence, she solved everything" |
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Jedi |
For the most part tortoise bores me stiff too (especially Djed - ugh). I really like their song 'seneca,' but I think that's the only one. I would recommend Polvo - they're good for the weird phrase lengths/time sigs. They're sometimes called math rock, but I dunno... I like to think of em as noise rock (as if it makes a difference). Check out their album Exploded Drawing - a good first track would be either "feather of forgiveness" or "fast canoe." Whoops - got that song title wrong. This message has been edited. Last edited by: V, |
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Enthusiast |
Hey Vit, didn't mean to come on so strong in my reply about Sufjan. The dude doesn't work for. I guess I got irritated by the whole Time Signature talk, cause I really can't stand it when music gets overly mathematical and pretentious, losing it's charm. I am of the 'keep it simple stupid' school of music. Give me Neil Young and the Rolling Stones any day of the week and I am a happy man. I do respect Sufjan somewhat for trying to push the musical 'singer-songwriter' boundaries but I find his voice absolutely weak, too steeped in sensitive-indie-singer, for me. But I think he is simply "getting too cute for his own good" and that can start to annoy. Yes, he is talented, but he needs to practice a little restraint, sometimes less is more. Just my humble opinion. Here is a great article I found on Sufjan that pretty much hits the nail on the head regarding his music. I highly recommend you read - A Case Against Sufjan Stevens This message has been edited. Last edited by: Marlon, |
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Enthusiast |
Speaking of time signatures. You won't find anything crazier than some of these 'death metal' bands and their time signatures. MegaDeath's stuff is just off the wall, I can't stand it, but I am somehow curious as in morbidly curious, I gess, when it comes to the musicianship of these guys like MegaDeath. They are good but awful at the same time.
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"Forum Moderator" Jedi |
That article (linked a couple of pages back by Daniel, Esq) was what started the whole "Sufjan bashing" discussion. At least Erlewine makes an ARGUMENT about Sufjan in that piece. Agree or disagree, it's better than blind hero-worship or claims like "if you bash Sufjan, you're an idiot." I think he makes several good points, although I certainly don't agree with EVERYTHING he says in the article. |
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Enthusiast |
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