quote:

Originally posted by Daniel, Esq.:
Having said that, I think the distinction between music "reviews" and "criticism" sounds a bit artificial. It seems to me that a review can analyze the music on an album, or evaluate the album in a broader context. It often doesn't -- for any number of reasons, I guess, e.g., space limits, laziness, time-pressures -- but I don't see why it can't.

Absolutely, D.! A music review can absolutely function as criticism. Not all of them do for exactly the reasons you cite.

To borrow an example from outside of music. There was a guy that used to cover theatre for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Whenever he covered a play you could rest assured he would tell the plot (sometimes too much of the plot) and who was in it, but not whether the acting, direction, or design were interesting or effective. He was a nice guy who genuinely enjoyed the theatre, but he really didn't know much about the practice of the theatre arts. He could write a bang up review of his experience, but he was singularly unqualified to practice theatre criticism.

Now Playing: "Where My Baby Be" Demolition Doll Rods There Is A Difference <-- this one took a bit of listening, but I can see where crazed is coming from...thanks, c.!

I'm sort of surprised there hasn't been much talk about it, but I picked up Johnny Cash's American Recordings V the other day, and I think it's great. I think the whole American Recordings series taken as a whole is one of the most impressive musical statements of the 90s and 2000s. Between the five official albums and the four disks of outtakes from the unearthed box set, Cash and Rubin recorded a huge amount of music, and to me, almost all of it sounds good.

quote:

Originally posted by LinnTate:
Personally, I'm inclined to agree with Erlewine that the acclaim Stevens' receives for his arrangement reflects more of a lack of broader musical experience on the part of his fans than any unique musical genius.

What a condescending comment. Especially given that you have absolutely no way of supporting it with any kind of facts.

The majority of Metacritic members voted him into the #1 spot last year for "illinoise", as did many other music sites. I guess we're all just inexeperienced music listeners. Unlike you.

quote:

Originally posted by hudson:

quote:

Originally posted by LinnTate:
Personally, I'm inclined to agree with Erlewine that the acclaim Stevens' receives for his arrangement reflects more of a lack of broader musical experience on the part of his fans than any unique musical genius.

What a condescending comment. Especially given that you have absolutely no way of supporting it with any kind of facts.

The majority of Metacritic members voted him into the #1 spot last year for "illinoise", as did many other music sites. I guess we're all just inexeperienced music listeners. Unlike you.

Tomato tomatoe... oh well. I, for the record, revere Sufjan just below Jeff Mangum, pepperoni pizza, and this thread.

Yeah, that thread's great, ain't it? And to think it all starteed because my mom bought some Cheetos.

gladly followed the hype and downloaded Comets On fire - Avatar. Now 2006 is lookin good....

I'll update; my list keeps moving around so much...

My Best-of-Year List (2006)

# Artist - Album (Change since last listed)

01. Howe Gelb – ‘Sno Angel Like You (UP 1)
02. Sufjan Stevens – The Avalanche (DOWN 1)
03. Beirut – Gulag Orkestar (UP 3)
04. Islands – Return To The Sea (DOWN 1)
05. Band Of Horses – Everything All The Time (DOWN 1)
06. Fiery Furnaces – Bitter Tea (DOWN 1)
07. TV On The Radio – Return To Cookie Mountain (UP 1)
08. Danielson – Ships (DOWN 1)
09. Destroyer – Destroyer’s Rubies (NO CHANGE)
10. The Knife – Silent Shout (NO CHANGE)
11. Essex Green – Cannibal Sea (NEW TO LIST)
12. Sol Seppy – The Ghost Of 1 2 (NEW TO LIST)
13. Half-Handed Cloud – Halos + Lassos (NEW TO LIST)
14. Cat Power – The Greatest (DOWN 3)
15. Flaming Lips – At War With The Mystics (DOWN 2)
16. Liars – Drum’s Not Dead (NEW TO LIST)
17. Margot & The Nuclear So & So’s – The Dust Of Retreat (DOWN 5)
18. Comets On Fire – Avatar (NEW TO LIST)
19. Jenny Lewis – Rabbit Fur Coat (DOWN 3)
20. Nathan Fake – Drowning In A Sea Of Love (DOWN 2)

-----------------------------------------------

21. Neko Case – Fox Confessor Brings The Flood (DOWN 2)
22. Grizzly Bear – Yellow House (DOWN 5)
23. Sunset Rubdown – Shut Up I Am Dreaming (DOWN 8)
24. Tapes ‘n Tapes – The Loon (DOWN 10)
25. Scott Walker – The Drift (NEW TO LIST)
26. Centro-Matic – Fort Recovery (NEW TO LIST)
27. Belle & Sebastian – The Life Pursuit (DOWN 7)
28. Anathallo – Floating World (NEW TO LIST)
29. Evangelicals – So Gone (NEW TO LIST)
30. Scritti Politti – White Bread Black Beer (NEW TO LIST)

As you can see, Sunset Rubdown, Tapes 'n Tapes, and Belle & Sebastian have aged very badly, even over only a few weeks, and Beirut has made a significant move up in my book.

quote:

Originally posted by L. R. William Spencer:
oh well. I, for the record, revere Sufjan just below Jeff Mangum, pepperoni pizza, and this thread.

I revere Sufjan just below Celine Dion, pickled herring, and a trip to the dentist.

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:

quote:

Originally posted by L. R. William Spencer:
oh well. I, for the record, revere Sufjan just below Jeff Mangum, pepperoni pizza, and this thread.

I revere Sufjan just below Celine Dion, pickled herring, and a trip to the dentist.

Yum, pickled herring. I agree with LR in that Sunset Rubdown, Tapes 'n Tapes and Belle all keep going down my list. Their all good, but it does get tiring eventually. Margot and The Nuclear So and So's keeps going up for me. It's great!

quote:

Originally posted by hudson:
The majority of Metacritic members voted him into the #1 spot last year for "illinoise", as did many other music sites. I guess we're all just inexeperienced music listeners. Unlike you.

I'm curious about the age spread of those people who loved Illinois and those who didn't love it. My guess (and it's only a guess) is that the Sufjan fans skew younger and indie-er than those who don't think he's the living end. I don't claim to be more 'experienced' than anyone else, but I don't hear anything in Illinois that I haven't heard before, with less pretense. It's also a little unfair to confuse what LT is saying (that claims about Sufjan being a 'genius' might be a little strong) with the lesser claim: that people who picked Illinois as their favorite record of 2005 were doing so out of lack of musical sophistication. It could well have been the best record of 2005: that doesn't mean that the artist in question is a 'genius.'

I think it is a fair case to make, though, to say that if your listening background covers only a few years or a few records, you would be more inclined to hoist the label "genius" on something that, when you had listened to more stuff, you might find to be less than genius. I'm sure we all have artists we LOVED when we first got into music, and swore that we would never get enough of them, that became private embarassments.

I'm not saying I think Sufjan is that kind of artist. I'm just guessing that people who don't know a lot of his influences from personal experience might find Sufjan to be less of a genius if they listened to them. But, maybe they'll find his stylistic borrowings to prove he's even MORE of a genius, the whole being greater than the sum of the parts.

I don't think there's much correlation between how much you like Sufjan Stevens and how much 'experience' you have listening.

He's no brilliant composer, but he does approach songwriting in an uncommon way, and he does have the talent to translate his feelings into sound, which a lot of more technically talented songwriters don't have.

Whether or not you like him has more to do with your aesthetic preferences.

quote:

I'm not saying I think Sufjan is that kind of artist. I'm just guessing that people who don't know a lot of his influences from personal experience might find Sufjan to be less of a genius if they listened to them.

Yes. I think that this could be generalized. ie, the more listening experience a person has (age probably intensifies the effect), the less likely he or she will whip out the G-word at a moment's notice.

Been listening to a pretty cool band from SF call rust belt music. Sort of like Will Oldham during Viva Last Blues. Or (for RL) like Elephant Micah if he had a sense of humor. You can download all of their music for free on their website www.rustbeltmusic.com

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:

quote:

Originally posted by L. R. William Spencer:
oh well. I, for the record, revere Sufjan just below Jeff Mangum, pepperoni pizza, and this thread.

I revere Sufjan just below Celine Dion, pickled herring, and a trip to the dentist.

Well done, ericg. And in response to pE, yes, I am just shy of 18, and I think Sufjan is very very good. Genius? Sure, why not, since it is a very flexible term.

quote:

Originally posted by L. R. William Spencer:
Well done, ericg. And in response to pE, yes, I am just shy of 18, and I think Sufjan is very very good. Genius? Sure, why not, since it is a very flexible term.

I'm kidding of course. I'd give the edge to Stevens in any of those three scenarios. You couldn't pay me enough to eat pickled herring.

Chimining in on the whole Sufjan Stevens thing, I'm older, but I do think he is sporadically brilliant...The back to back to back home runs of Chicago, Casimir Pulaski Day, and Man of Metropolis on Illinois is just a damn impressive twenty minute stretch of music no matter how you slice it.

That said, he appears to me to be shaping up as one of those ultra prolific types, ala Elvis Costello or Billy Corgan, who will throw out everything he does for consumption rather than separate the wheat from the chaff...Like Elvis Costello, as Stevens continues his career, and we become increasingly familiar with his music, this will become a growing irritation.

I for one, found most of Avalanche apart from the three Chicago remixes to be pretty f**ng bland, and repetitive of past works.

quote:

Originally posted by keylimetrev:
Been listening to a pretty cool band from SF call rust belt music. Sort of like Will Oldham during Viva Last Blues. Or (for RL) like Elephant Micah if he had a sense of humor. You can download all of their music for free on their website www.rustbeltmusic.com

Thanks for the heads-up, KLT. I will definitely check that out.

quote:

Originally posted by philosopherEric:
[ I don't claim to be more 'experienced' than anyone else, but I don't hear anything in Illinois that I haven't heard before, with less pretense.

Yeah, well that statement could feasibly hold true for 95% of the records released in the past several decades. Of course you've heard it all before, in some form. I've heard Radiohead's music before too, with less pretense. Does that detract from their genius and creativity? I think not.

Try to think back on what kind of music you listened to with only a few years of listening experience under your belt. Was it indie stuff like Sufjan or was is more mainstream, accessible music?

This whole anti-Sufjan thing is akin to Q's review of the Knife. Failure to give an artist their due because of the need to remain different, like you know something everyone else doesn't.

But, I digress. I've said enough on this topic and in all honesty, i'm NOT purposefully trying to rub anyone the wrong way. I just get a little annoyed with some of the condescension around here sometimes. Not like people don't get annoyed with me too.

The music I listened to when I was 10 was the current-at-the-time Rubber Soul, Revolver, Aftermath, Kinda Kinks, Face to Face, My Generation, etc. I'm not sure what it means, but I do enjoy lots of new music because of it. I don't think any of it was pretentious though, but you may correct me.

Who did Radiohead's music first and with less pretense? Tell me please.

quote:

Originally posted by hudson:
Try to think back on what kind of music you listened to with only a few years of listening experience under your belt. Was it indie stuff like Sufjan or was is more mainstream, accessible music?

This whole anti-Sufjan thing is akin to Q's review of the Knife. Failure to give an artist their due because of the need to remain different, like you know something everyone else doesn't.

For me, Sufjan Stevens is one of those artists it seems I should like, but just don't. I typically like singer/songwriter pop/folk stuff. I've given his music more than enough chances and I still don't see what all the fuss is about. It's not that I even find his music inaccessible like I do with the Knife or Danielson, but I just find him boring. The best thing I can say about Sufjan Stevens' music is that it's okay. All the genius comments leave me scratching my head. Honestly, I don't think anyone would give him a second listen if he didn't have the "50 States" gimmick.