I need somebody to edit all of this into the math rock article on wikipedia, thus turning it into canon and I can't do it myself because it'd be a conflict of interest. Need to trick those motherfuckers.
mathcore isn't a perfect descriptor, but calling DEP and Botch metalcore just doesn't do these bands justice (especially DEP - who are more talented and knowledgeable than any metalcore band from a purely technical viewpoint, and i don't see how this can even be argued). honestly, i think mathcore describes DEP's sound much better than metalcore.
Posts: 513 | Location: San Diego | Registered: 26 November 2007
I heard the tracks on myspace and it didn't tickle me so ya.
Also, I added a bunch of streaming tracks to the math rock article. Some Drive Like Jehu, Tera Melos, Hella, and Giraffes? Giraffes!. I may add more but I don't want it to get cluttered.
I think the problem here is that 'Math-Rock' (odd title) is a number of things. It encompasses metal, punk, prog-rock, experimental, art-rock and indie aesthetics (amongst other things).
It would be a difficult topic to place anywhere on this forum. Prog-Rock and punk were polar opposite genres at one time. For example, The Sex Pistols famously wore T-shirts with the slogan I hate Pink Floyd. Nowadays, you can incorporate incredible musical skill into punk and no-one bats an eyelid.
Personally I've always identified Math-Rock as an extreme form of metal, but I feel I would be alone in that assumption.
These genre titles are a pain in the arse. If anyone asked me what Math-Rock was, I'd say it was very fast complicated heavy stuff with compound time signatures and a singer who sounds like GRAAH! GRAAH! GRAAH!
But that description could apply to death metal as well... Aaargh!
Personally I've always identified Math-Rock as an extreme form of metal, but I feel I would be alone in that assumption.
You are not alone (in creepy Moulder voice).
I think math-rock splits into a lot of more generic genres. To my mind, math rock may be Punk, Metal, or Post-Rock (I'm probably missing something here).
Drive Like Jehu are hard to label as anything but punk, and they play with technicality and interesting time-signatures.
Dillinger Escape Plan (and everyone that rides their nuts) are easily metal and math-rock at the same time.
And, finanlly, Don-Cab, Battles, Tortoise, the list goes on and on, may be deemed Post-Rock by some, but math-rock by others. I believe Math-Rock moved into the realm of being a sub-label of post-rock, which i find incorrect, but it fits in some cases (certainly not most).
Posts: 460 | Location: California | Registered: 06 March 2008
You guys are still missing the point of my original post. It doesn't matter if there are pockets of math rock that are really post-rock or are really metal, the math rock in question (northern california) is punk-derived. For example, Duncan you take on math-rock "very fast complicated heavy stuff with compound time signatures and a singer who sounds like GRAAH! GRAAH! GRAAH" really only applies to Dillinger Escape Plan who are more just super technical metal/metalcore bands than anything. However, these guys have nothing to do with the Tera Melos and the Hellas of the world. It just disappoints me that instead of reading the article and maybe learning about some new bands or getting something out of it, it seems like everybody glazes over the details and goes back to their prejudices about the genre.
I don't have any particular prejudices towards Math-Rock, but I would support the view that it is one of those 'in-between' genres. I did read through the reviews and located references to a number of other styles including jazz, screamo and emo.
I own quite a few albums by so-called math-rock bands, above and beyond The Dillinger Escape Plan.
There's a little known band from the UK called November Coming Fire that seem to represent more of the punk aesthetic in math-rock, although they refer to themselves as post-rock. I also listened to The Locust for a while (Californian I believe?). There are many more that seemingly fit the tag.
I also have a close friend who has a wealth of recordings from as far back as the 80s that seem to follow along the lines of math-rock, but back then it was filed under progressive, jazz, experimental or new wave (amongst other things). A lot of his collection is based around the Knitting Factory in New York.
It's a weird genre for sure. I am still uncertain if most bands who are filed under 'math-rock' actually set out to attain that label or if they just happen to be included. Whatever the case, the whole thing seems to have started with Captain Beefheart (also Californian?) and he still defies categorisation to this day.
Originally posted by Duncan Black: I don't have any particular prejudices towards Math-Rock, but I would support the view that it is one of those 'in-between' genres. I did read through the reviews and located references to a number of other styles including jazz, screamo and emo.
I own quite a few albums by so-called math-rock bands, above and beyond The Dillinger Escape Plan.
There's a little known band from the UK called November Coming Fire that seem to represent more of the punk aesthetic in math-rock, although they refer to themselves as post-rock. I also listened to The Locust for a while (Californian I believe?). There are many more that seemingly fit the tag.
I also have a close friend who has a wealth of recordings from as far back as the 80s that seem to follow along the lines of math-rock, but back then it was filed under progressive, jazz, experimental or new wave (amongst other things). A lot of his collection is based around the Knitting Factory in New York.
It's a weird genre for sure. I am still uncertain if most bands who are filed under 'math-rock' actually set out to attain that label or if they just happen to be included. Whatever the case, the whole thing seems to have started with Captain Beefheart (also Californian?) and he still defies categorisation to this day.
Not to be a hater, and keep in mind I'm just assuming, but the version of math rock you've put together strikes me as wikipedia intellectualism. That Captain Beefheart thing. Okay, his zaniness and penchant for unconventional everything (time sigs and tempo shifts included) translate really well to math rock, particularly in Japanese bands and Hella. However, the causality didn't fit. Beefheart came to that by way of Zappa's distinctive compositional style, whereas a band like Hella emerged out of a trend that was much more rooted in punk. Yet other bands like Don Caballero has little in common with Beefheart aesthetics. Beefheart was part of what Zappa was doing, which often got labeled as "freak." They were being interesting and weird for the sake of itself, whereas many math rock bands emerged out of indie or punk and have little to do with the classic rock gone jazz fusion gone modern classical gone crazy leanings of Frank Zappa. If anything the argument that Zach Hill of Hella played in Crime in Choir, a band that at moments reminds me of the Mothers of Invention might work, but other than that, the Beefheart stuff feels like the postulating of ignorant journalists or maybe somebody reading into a whimsical mention of Beefheart as an influence from an interview with some seminal math rock band.
With the Locust as well, it's not that the Locust are math rock. Justin Pearson, who pretty much leads The Locust. They are much more grind centric and pretty much took the San Diego screamo sound and injected electronics and grind into it. I think the reason people lump the Locust into categories with math rock is that a) they play crazy fast technical music, so it's just easy to listen to something that inscrutable and liken it to an equally inscrutable heavy band like Dillinger Escape Plan, who actually fuck with time signatures a lot, and b) Pearson was in Swing Kids, an important band in the San Diego / San Francisco screamo scene that ultimately had a strong influence on the Northern California math rock bands I talk about in my article. You say "seemingly fit the tab [of math rock]" when in reality, The Locust are not math rock, but may have a splash of it, and it's more external factors like Pearson's role in the scene that would lead people to lump them together with other math rock bands.
About DEP. Yes they do "mathy" stuff. However, their style is just one facet of math rock. Math rock can pretty downright melodic and calm. Engine Down, while not a true blue math rock band, made a point of using a lot of interesting grooves over unconventional time sigs, but they have tracks that are pretty subdued. The Japanese band Toe, is even more melodic, spending a lot of time in major keys with acoustic guitars. I think it's more important to look at math rock's scene pluralism than to think its general style is heavy, which you've labeled as DEP et al. Also, you example genres are funny ("jazz, screamo and emo") because the latter two are just punk subgenres.
I'd be particularly interested to hear about those recordings from as far back as the 80s. My problem is that I was still rocking a single-digit age when math rock was beginning, so my knowledge is based off of being an avid listener, but is also tethered to hindsight and needing to reconcile the stuff on wikipedia with what I'm actually hearing to paint the picture. A lot of the commentary there seems to be bogus or is contradictory to the actual music on these records. God I hate the genre pages on wikipedia but whatever. Anyways, I don't mean to be judgmental, but I think there's a lot to be said about math rock by going a little deeper than just having a few albums all over.
Not to be a hater, and keep in mind I'm just assuming, but the version of math rock you've put together strikes me as wikipedia intellectualism. That Captain Beefheart thing. Okay, his zaniness and penchant for unconventional everything (time sigs and tempo shifts included) translate really well to math rock, particularly in Japanese bands and Hella. However, the causality didn't fit. Beefheart came to that by way of Zappa's distinctive compositional style, whereas a band like Hella emerged out of a trend that was much more rooted in punk. Yet other bands like Don Caballero has little in common with Beefheart aesthetics. Beefheart was part of what Zappa was doing, which often got labeled as "freak." They were being interesting and weird for the sake of itself, whereas many math rock bands emerged out of indie or punk and have little to do with the classic rock gone jazz fusion gone modern classical gone crazy leanings of Frank Zappa. If anything the argument that Zach Hill of Hella played in Crime in Choir, a band that at moments reminds me of the Mothers of Invention might work, but other than that, the Beefheart stuff feels like the postulating of ignorant journalists or maybe somebody reading into a whimsical mention of Beefheart as an influence from an interview with some seminal math rock band.
You may well be right about The Locust and it's something I need to look into in more depth.
However, I see Captain Beefheart as the beginning of a plethora of unusual musical styles. Beefheart (real name Don Van Vliet) was much more than a sidekick to Zappa. He was/is incredible in his own right. One of Zappa's backing band once commented that 'Zappa... oh sure he's good, but Beefheart? He's the real deal!'. The musician in question was not alone in this observation and Zappa was often annoyed that Vliet embodied the spirit of experimetal music without even having to think about it. Zappa liked to think that he was responsible for Vliet's success, but in reality, it was Vliet's undeniable talent as a composer/performer/lyricist that attracted a large audience and this was a considerable thorn in Zappa's side.
Zappa was always quite slick in his work, with one eye firmly on the mainstream. Don't get me wrong - he's a genius, but by contrast Beefheart never compromised for one second. He was certainly not 'weird for the sake of it', he really was like that. The music that emerged in the wake of Beefheart, may not have immediately led to Math-Rock, but it certainly was the catalyst, in the same way modern metal owes a considerable debt to Black Sabbath.
Additional to Math-Rock, you can hear the influence of Beefheart in many pieces by Mr Bungle, Dillinger Escape Plan, John Zorn and even dEUS. These artists may say they never listen to Beefheart, but the chances are, they have listened to a band that were inflenced by Beefheart. Check out albums such as Decals and Trout Mask Replica. It has very little to do with jazz or classic rock. The music is raw, complex and disonant with compound time signatures and pre-dates the entire punk genre as an antidote to 'boring' mainstream music. I find a Beefheart album appeals in a very similar fashion to Math-Rock.
Capatain Beefheart, when compared to Zappa and the Mothers, is an entirely different proposition. He was a genius in his own very unique way and is quite possibly the Godfather of all complicated, messed-up, unwell music - in my humble opinion of course!
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Duncan Black,
I wasn't still rattling about your article by the way. I was talking about Math-Rock in general.
I'd say that King Crimson had an influence on Math-Rock. Progressive (prog) Rock music seems to be the forefather of this supposed genre (i still don't believe it exists by the way). Hyper-prog tends to fall quite in line with this "Math-Rock" deal and, as such, bands like Deerhoof could be considered Math-Rock (perhaps rightly?).
This is one of those completely mundane genre-tags, where bands like Dillinger, Don Cab, and Deerhoof can co-exist.
There are bands of every facet of rock that play things that are "mathy," from punk (Drive like Jehu) to post-punk (Shellac, Rodan) to metal (Dillinger) to indie (Polvo, Battles, hell, even Menomena) to indie-pop (Deerhoof) to even electronica (tell me Richard D. James isn't mathy and I'll call you a liar).
Plus, i think Jazz invented math-rock to my way of thinking, but whatever floats your boat will do.
Posts: 460 | Location: California | Registered: 06 March 2008
Originally posted by CleverName84: I'd say that King Crimson had an influence on Math-Rock.
Well spotted! King Crimson could even be termed as Math-Rock in a very literal sense as many pieces are composed according to very strict mathematical formulas.
Aphex Twin is also a vital component, although maybe less 'rocky' and more 'mathy'. Having said that Come To Daddy has always rocked to my ears. That Dillinger chose to cover it speaks volumes.
Back to the matter in hand though. To appease Mr Felon, I think we should point out that these artists were catalysts. Maybe we should be discussing the current artists associated with this curious genre, although my knowledge of the bang up-to-date artists is severely lacking! (November Coming Fire being one exception).
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