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Jedi |
I think this one deserves an actual thread. Metal Gear Solid as a series is my favorite set of games ever made. Hideo Kojima's combination of oddball humor, perturbed characters, and insane boss battles has always won praise from the likes of me and many others. So, here we are 20 years later. After beating Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots last night, I can easily say that this game is the best on the PS3 and one of the greatest I have ever played. The story does a fine job of concluding the adventures of Snake and friends. The graphics are the best any console has to offer and the gameplay is similar to prior entries but welcome nonetheless. Wow...
 What do you all think of this marvel of a game?"Silla oxide rhymes flow like a rockslide you musta forgot I, have your ass knockneed and cockeyed Bruised, battered, broken up, walkin, cut dipped in peroxide" Death to the Pop Fly |
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Slacker First Class |
I agree completely with what you said. This is one of the greatest masterpieces in years, regardless of book/cd/movie/game. It's that good. But there's one game who's brilliance struck out at me more.....gta4 iis still the top dog right now. But that's the only game pretty much that I would say is over it in the past few years. I'm a big fan of both franchises.
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Jedi |
I've never played the MGS games. Just got the PS3. Loved GTA4. Currently enjoying SoulCaliber.
Is there any point in playing MGS4 if you haven't played the previous games. The reviews make it sound like it's a satisfying end to the series, where you find out all the secrets. But if you're coming in blind, there's no satisfaction from that. Parenthetically, I had the same problem with Halo 3. I'd never played it, so I had no nostalgia for the characters or circumstances. As such, I found the story mode kind of dull and soul-less. --------------- My basic objection to religion is not that it isn't true; I like plenty of things that aren't true. It's that religion grants its adherents malign, intoxicating and morally corrosive sensations. -Philip Pullman |
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Slacker |
MGS4 is my favorite game- and as such, it really bugs me when people make an immature, stupid analysis of it- "There's not even jumping!" "Too many cutscenes!" "Too easy!" Seriously, there's no need for jumping, you can skip the cutscenes (but the cutscenes are practically a work of art themselves), and if it's too easy, go on a harder difficulty! It bugs me that people make such stupid complaints about the game and fail to admit all the great points about it. Does anyone else hear that type of thing a lot?
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Participant |
Simply a beautiful series
Critter Mate.Feed.Kill.Repeat |
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Upwardly Mobile Participant |
i thought the "game" was horrid...very little gameplay and what was actually there was boring...far too much focus on story...is it even a game?
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Know-It-All |
dude there's a SKIP button. so u don't have to watch the 'annoying' cutscenes. it's a game - no tricks. it's also a game that got A to A+ ratings, mofo. |
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Participant |
I pity you...seriously...go kill something mindlessly in first person , thats all you are worthy for. |
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Participant |
The story makes the game, it is past just mindless shooting it has raw emotion and is a all round great game. Mate.Feed.Kill.Repeat |
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Slacker |
It has taken me until tonight to finally stomach my way through the incredible drivel that is Metal Gear Solid 4. I am almost without words to describe my disbelief that a game this stunningly awful game could get such a high metacritic score. MGS4 averaged a 94% - and is compelling evidence that video game reviewers are either entirely willing to be bribed, or are just not sophisticated enough in their analysis to judge a book by its contents.
Metal Gear Solid 4 as a game is passable, and judged on the interactive mechanics of sneaking and shooting is about as good as most of the other games of its type. MGS4 as a *movie* is stupefying pitiful. Given that half the game is spent passively watching them shovel this offal at your face, you'd think game reviewers would deduct points for how utterly bad it is. This game rivals Star Wars: Episode I for the crown of "Worst Ego-fueled Train Wreck." Hideo Kojima is the most aggrandized, self-serving blow hard who has ever squatted down and laid his steaming vision into the eyes of gamers everywhere. Among his innumerable offenses to cinema, the man has absolute no understanding of the following things: -Human motivation in any form. -Human emotion, and how to elicit it. -Humor, in any situation. -The Military, and those who are a part of it. -The Economy, on every possible level. -Dialog, in every aspect, all the way down to misuse of simple words. -Story Direction, including plot development and pacing. I created a forum account and I'm posting this here, because I truly am mystified - someone out there must have found some value in this story, and I'm here to beg for enlightenment. Beyond the two options I've already considered - the "so bad it's good," and "so unfocused in its creation you can assign your own meaning" - what value does anyone get? |
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Slacker |
Cutter99, be happy in knowing that posting on these sites is much like voting for the next President of the U.S. You don't have to prove you're smart, that you have an I.Q. above 80, have a job, or are even worthy of being listened to. By writing your post you have proven to the majority that you fail at understanding what makes video games great.
You don't get it, and probably never will. |
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Participant |
Cutter99 i guess you must be the smartest person in the entire world.You realised just how kojima tricked all of us , into thinking MGS4 is a good game , while in reality it is a... drivel.
My oh my how smart you are.Sure Kojima understands nothing about human emotion , military , economy etc etc , while you , "almgihty cutter99" , are obviously a genious , a living legend , something along these lines anyway. Well guess what genious.You are alone in this world of yours , Kojima is making money you cant even dream about , and the rest of us "fools" are enjoying this game in ways you cant possibly understand. Now go find a reticule and kill something. |
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Know-It-All |
or play as master chief with the trampoline vertical abilities. |
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Slacker |
Wow, interesting. I wasn't claiming any particular superiority in opinion or perspective - I was simply detailing my own and asking people to explain theirs. But if all of you can't muster anything beyond personal attacks to defend your own position, I'm probably sitting some place that's far beyond your skills at analysis and rhetoric.
Still, optimism will win out this time and I'll carry on hoping someone can provide something more substantial than "gosh Cutter, you're so dumb." Let’s examine a specific element of the story in MGS4, and I’ll more carefully explain why I think everything in it is either senseless or pointless: **spoilers ahead - on the off chance you haven't played the game** Situation from MGS4 - Snake sneaks into a lab to rescue Naomi. There's an exciting premise with the promise of some fun stealth/action. It's what happens as a result of this that tests my patience beyond the limits: -for the sake of plot exposition, rather than grab the girl and actually make the escape, snake disrobes and undergoes an extended physical. -no explanation is asked for, or given, for why the good doctor is seemingly in cahoots with Liquid. -the purpose of the drawn-out physical is for Naomi to inform Snake that he may be carrying a potential doomsday virus. -only after an extended doctors visit does Naomi get around to mentioning that she's constantly under surveillance - and look, here come the guards and the inviso-lady with tentacles. Boss fight ensues. Now right there, this whole situation has got any number of glaring problems with it. It takes forever to sit through, informs the audience (and the characters) only very little, and at the end we're obviously expected to get caught back up in the action of the moment - when it's ludicrous that these guards just stood back while Naomi was telling Snake to turn his head and cough. Furthermore, what happens in this scene only gets *more* purposeless the further you get into the story. It turns out Snake's blind trust in Naomi isn't entirely well-founded, as she is playing her own game with her own motives. So why, after this is revealed - is her doomsday virus diagnosis still treated as gospel? How is anything she said at any point in the game not treated with even a tiny bit of suspicion? The "Foxdie Virus Turned Mass Killer" plot point ultimately gets the final diving elbow of laughable resolution when Big Boss turns up at the eleventh hour with the happy proclamation that it is being suppressed by yet another virus within Snake. Let's forget for a moment how utterly incapable Big Boss is of actually acquiring this rather impossible bit of information - but why is *his* word now taken without any suspicion? This idea of the Foxdie virus turning Our Hero into something dangerous ultimately amounts to absolutely nothing. That bit could have been removed from the game entirely and the only thing missing would have been the "oh no, Snake shot himself to save us all" head-fake that was nothing more than a cheap shot that loses whatever emotions it elicits after the reveal that the whole thing is a wash anyways. **End spoilers** If this was the only self-contradicting element to the story, that would be one thing. Yet this game is jam-packed with hours of "Story" that are nothing more than useless, hollow words that don't connect to (or even much amount to) anything. The best I can gather - is that (much like Dragon Ball Z) because the game is Japanese in origin it is forgiven its absolute lack of sense, and fans just fill in the blanks with whatever they wish. I guess that's something. |
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Know-It-All |
whether the story is informative or not, is truly the viewer's opinion. But from what i gather, I can tell that Kojima came up with a story that kept me captivated, whether really telling me anything or not. The point of story is not having important and revealing facts - it's more on delivery, acting, facial emotions - things that keep people watching. Those are what makes a story memorable even after the realization little to no sense of a plot is shown. Halo series, undeniably, had that magic. Think back on it now, and you think it's pretty ludicrous that a giant ring was made to destroy everything possible, and that this religious sect has rainbow colored soldiers. But the characters were memorable (Sgt Johnson, anyone?), master chief, cortana, etc. They were what made the series what it is now. |
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Slacker |
Well, I have to disagree with you - but maybe I was unclear. When I say that the scene does not communicate any useful information that isn't a matter of opinion, it's just a simplification of what the story is telling the audience. For example: the opening scenes of Star Wars: A New Hope (not counting the text crawl) communicates (basically) the following things: -R2D2 are escaping with some sort of plans, which are important in some way. -The Empire is powerful -Darth Vader is a bad guy who kills people. -Princess Leia is a good-guy, a spitfire, and also a prisoner. These are important things, because they lead into further story events and help create the attachment to the characters. When I say nothing important happens in the Naomi Lab scene, I mean that nothing is presented to the audience that influences any further story elements - beyond the virus plot which holds no ultimate importance. The character designs are brilliant, the animations are obviously top-notch - but I don't think that's enough. The delivery and the expression are simply isolated elements: this character is happy, this character is sad, this character is weepy - it's important that they can pull that stuff off, but without any reason it just becomes pretty lights and sounds. To throw in another Star Wars example: Liam Neeson is a fantastic actor - and he played his role of Qui-Gon with all the gravity he could muster. That didn't stop the story from being gut-punchingly *bad*. No matter how good his delivery is the story is never memorable - beyond the memory "it's really a shame that movie sucked." I really do apologize if it sounds like I'm off on some high-horse. It's just that I am genuinely staggered that the story of this game (that I sat through in its entirety - every codec and movie) receives such high praise. It seems so bad that I really have a hard time finding any redeemable part to it. So - lay it on me, people of the Internets: what is it about this story that makes it any good? |
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Know-It-All |
It might be theory, but I think it gets the scores it does not because it tells the best story for a game, but because in this gen it's the one that actually puts a GOOD story in, or one with substance at least.
Almost all metal gear games have that quality to it, the somewhat dreary and slow-feel to it, but what you don't see as important now you find out, even a few years later even, that it was a subtle hint for something. For all the time that we are in Naomi's lab, the second time through you can see some things that are giving away that she wasn't truly all on your side (did you notice the legs of laughing octopus whatever her name is, slipping right out of your vision when you looked out the window while talking to Naomi?) Kojima is very subtle from the beginning to the middle in his storytelling, it's just something in all series. Compare this story, to say, Killzone 2. Great game, horrible horrible story. Clear differences, right? Because there wasn't any emotion in the game. That's what is a driving factor imo, for game stories - is the delivery. Could be crap, but if there's no feeling it'll flunk. As for movies. They generally get harsher judgement on story because the plot is practically everything someone will watch a movie for. Games, not always - it's for the overall experience, and story becomes a side factor. Unless you're playing Bioshock. |
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Slacker |
Well, I'm not trying to argue that MGS4 is a bad *game*. Obviously there's a mountain of polish, high production values, the gameplay is fun and diverse, etc. What puzzles me is that the story doesn't get criticized more. Just like you say - eventually you learn that Naomi isn't truly on your side. So why does Snake believe her "you're carrying a doomsday virus" prognosis after he learns of this? Why, for that matter, must Naomi and Liquid manipulate Snake into implanting her virus into the GW computer to wipe out the Patriots system? Why didn't Naomi just take it with her when she defected back and do it herself? The whole dramatic ending where Snake is heroically crawling on his knees, Meryl and Johnny are just barely holding off the Frogs, Raiden is fighting for his life with a sword in his *mouth* - it's all for nothing. They're all just patsies of The Patriots who are hoping they can stop Liquid from destroying their system, and ultimately the patsies fail in this. Which is good... I guess? What does it matter - it's FIST FIGHT TIME! WOOO!! Now Snake and Liquid (who was really Ocelot the whole time) will PUMMEL EACH OTHER FOR NO REASON! I mean, the story is just... it's way past bad. It's almost insane. I can't believe professional reviewers didn't at least *mention* that part. Actually - the Eurogamer review did, and for that they need to give themselves some kind of medal. |
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Apprentice Guru |
I'm curious as to whether you've actually played any of the other Metal Gear Solid games.
They're soap operas, my friend. Nothing more, nothing less. That being said, they're brilliant soap operas that keep me (and millions of others like me) fascinated. Also, let's analyze the Metal Gear Solid series as a whole, in terms of story (you really can't look at 4 by itself, and if you think you can, you're mistaken): it's convoluted, over-the-top, ridiculous... yet it gets away with it. Either that says that video game stories are so bad, we'll take just about anything that's different from "save the princess." OR Kojima has tapped into something with his unique, bizarre brand of storytelling. Also, it's difficult to compare a game to any other sort of art form, like a movie. Both have different methods that they utilize to tell stories, so to compare a movie like Star Wars to Metal Gear Solid 4 seems a little askew to me. Also, if you HAVE played all the Metal Gear Solids up to this point, how have you not been offended by any of their story telling abilities? All of them have scenes that could be considered "useless." ___________________________ I dreamt about you last night, and I fell out of bed twice |
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Participant |
Cutter99 , sorry man , i could write a huge post answering your questions , or as you believe "mistakes" in the storyline , but i really dont have neither the time , nor the patience to do so.
Some of the questions you are posing , make you look like you never played any MGS game before , or if you did , you either forgot , or didnt bother with the story that much. Furthermore , it seems you havent comprehended MGS4's story itself.I mean you cannot ask questions like "Why did Snake believe Naomi when she told him about him being a doomsday device in the near future" or "Why didnt Naomi infect the virus in GW herself"etcetc...(the virus wasnt even completed by her , since she couldnt) Seriously 90% of the questions you are posing are more due to your ignorance concerning the story of the series , or your lack of focus when playing story-driven games... Granted , MGS games always have moments of Japanese silliness , take for example the always diarrhea infected Johnny Sasaki , the whole Meryl-Sasaki proposition , Colonel Raidenovitch from MGS3 but they are there as a form of relief , and to please the fans.Sure you might find japanese humor not that good , and neither do i , but i like it when it comes in videogame form in the hands of Kojima. It is there simply to tell you "dont take all this too seriously" which is great in my opinion. Also MGS games have a huge amount of movie references and thats because the creator pays respect where its due.King Kong , 007 , Star Wars even the usual suspects and Mr and Mrs Smith etc etc. What most newcomers forget is that MGS series is sci fi , but from a more "realistic" approach. The story does have holes.But those holes are few and not of major importance that destroy the main plot of the series.And certainly the questions you have posed have all logical answers.You just need to pay more attention , or play the previous games... |
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