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Originally posted by Dork:
your argument up there basically says that their music sucks by any definable standard and then goes on to protest that you like it anyway. OK. I have similar crazy tastes and I can't question them in others; I have no need to. But to argue that we should enjoy them when they do not meet our criteria for good music? Ridiculous.

Actually, I never said that their music sucks by any definable standard, and I think it’s clear that wasn’t the point I was trying to make. The point that I’m trying to make is their music may not be genius but it isn’t crap.

I’m not asking you to lower your standards, I’m just saying don’t come in and knock an artist until you have really given their work a chance, otherwise expect people to argue against your points, especially if your points are intended to be insulting towards that artist. However I don’t think anyone here would give Puddle Of Mudd a chance now because they have already argued that their music is shit and no matter what, they will find something to shoot down so that they can stand by their convictions.

Maybe I should stumble on into one of the threads of a band that’s adored by everyone here on Metacritic, and then without truly listening to one of their albums or the album of topic, just assume that because it’s not mainstream, it’s shit music incapable of even conveying a message and has no purpose to exist because barely anyone listens to it, maybe then we will see how diplomatic your opinions really are.

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Originally posted by Miguel Sánchez:
Actually, I never said that their music sucks by any definable standard

Here:

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The main objective of playing music in the first place is NOT “let’s do something original and technical”, it’s “let’s have some fun and play some music we love”.

i.e., it's good because they love it. Or something. It's good because you love it? Because they're having fun? Hmmm.

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and I think it’s clear that wasn’t the point I was trying to make.

Right, but you made it anyway, thanks for that.

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The point that I’m trying to make is their music may not be genius but it isn’t crap.

Why not? Sheesh. It's like vehemently disliking Puddle Of Mudd is some sort of insult to you personally.

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I’m not asking you to lower your standards, I’m just saying don’t come in and knock an artist until you have really given their work a chance, otherwise expect people to argue against your points, especially if your points are intended to be insulting towards that artist. However I don’t think anyone here would give Puddle Of Mudd a chance now because they have already argued that their music is shit and no matter what, they will find something to shoot down so that they can stand by their convictions.

What exactly makes you assume I haven't given Puddle Of Mudd a chance? That no one here has?

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Maybe I should stumble on into one of the threads of a band that’s adored by everyone here on Metacritic, and then without truly listening to one of their albums or the album of topic, just assume that because it’s not mainstream, it’s shit music incapable of even conveying a message and has no purpose to exist because barely anyone listens to it, maybe then we will see how diplomatic your opinions really are.

Heh, mainstream. I obviously hate it without thought or consideration. I'm sure if you ask around, you'll find that my taste is solely confined to bands no one has ever heard of... because that's exactly the reputation I've created here. Not one of being weirdly mainstream on a mainly indie site or anything like that, nooo. I'm obviously an indie drone, and so is everyone else here. OMG, quick, we aren't validating your opinions! Maybe you can cheer yourself up by pretending we're all stupid and you're really the smart one, for being so brave and liking music no one else on Metacritic does.

Nice, you've shown your true colors tonight. I haven't said Puddle Of Mudd sucks because they're mainstream. In fact, no one has. When someone does, call me and I'll help you stomp a hole in their ass. Until then, maybe get some security about your taste in music. You don't need to pull the rug out from under people who disagree with you. That they differ in their opinions -- even if those opinions blend with their surroundings -- doesn't mean they're idiots, sheep, or lunatics. They're just different, and the same goes for people who like the band. So what? By any standard to which I hold art, Puddle Of Mudd makes crappy music. This doesn't mean I expect anyone to share my standards or taste, or accept them, but watching you attempt to piss on my ways of judging compositions is rather irritating.

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Originally posted by Dork:
Right, but you made it anyway, thanks for that.

If you want to loosely derive that I was making some point that Puddle of Mudd’s music sucks by any definable standard, that’s your choice to be completely and utterly wrong. I’ll be more clear, I think their music is good, do I think it’s genius? No.

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Originally posted by Dork:
Nice, you've shown your true colors tonight. I haven't said Puddle Of Mudd sucks because they're mainstream. In fact, no one has. When someone does, call me and I'll help you stomp a hole in their ass.

Actually, the only one who has shown their true colors is you, by becoming so irritated. I wasn’t accusing you of saying that any artist is shit because they’re mainstream, the point I was trying to make is, obviously, I would upset people if I came in and blatantly insulted something they like. I don’t know you, so I obviously don’t know what you listen to or why, nor do I care if this is going to be your attitude:

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Originally posted by Dork:
OMG, quick, we aren't validating your opinions! Maybe you can cheer yourself up by pretending we're all stupid and you're really the smart one, for being so brave and liking music no one else on Metacritic does.

Don’t flatter yourself, I don’t need you to validate my opinion, if you can’t handle the discussion without resorting to attacking me, then boo hoo.

As for this:

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Originally posted by Dork:
You don't need to pull the rug out from under people who disagree with you. That they differ in their opinions -- even if those opinions blend with their surroundings -- doesn't mean they're idiots, sheep, or lunatics. They're just different, and the same goes for people who like the band.

I NEVER called anyone an idiot, sheep or a lunatic, and I agree with your opinion here, but if you continue to put words in my mouth, I will ignore you.

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Originally posted by Dork:
but watching you attempt to piss on my ways of judging compositions is rather irritating.

You obviously assumed that my analogy was a crack at how you judge music, apart from you misinterpreting that, I may have questioned Mike earlier on in this thread about his beef with POM being related to their mainstream success, and that was due to the course of the discussion earlier, however, I NEVER criticized your methods of how you judge music.

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Originally posted by Dork:
What exactly makes you assume I haven't given Puddle Of Mudd a chance? That no one here has?

Ok, maybe I assumed wrong, if you say to me that you have listened to their recent album and thought it was shit I will gladly accept that as your opinion, and you can begin to not be irritated.

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Originally posted by Miguel Sánchez:
If you want to loosely derive that I was making some point that Puddle of Mudd’s music sucks by any definable standard, that’s your choice to be completely and utterly wrong. I’ll be more clear, I think their music is good, do I think it’s genius? No.

You made that clear, actually. Still haven't said why it's good though... and, heh, you still basically say it's unimaginative, unskilled, derivative music, in so many words. Shall I quote it again? I mean... there are plenty of bands I enjoy that have similar drawbacks, but at least I know when I'm skewering them.

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Actually, the only one who has shown their true colors is you, by becoming so irritated. I wasn’t accusing you of saying that any artist is shit because they’re mainstream, the point I was trying to make is, obviously, I would upset people if I came in and blatantly insulted something they like.

Ha.

Go to any NIN thread and give me an argument that the band is shitty, derivative, horrible and worthless, and if you can make it logical and reasonable, I'll not have the slightest problem with you. Hell, even if you can't, it's your goddamn opinion and your right to never even have to back it up. My opinions so often run counter to the board in general, I'd be a wreck if I were as fragile as the people you seem to describe. Not everyone needs to defend their tastes, in fact the board would be unimaginably improved if people accepted the universal subjectivity of it all, and realized that people are going to vehemently disagree, and even *gasp* insult the music they like. Fortunately, we're most of the way there already.

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I don’t know you, so I obviously don’t know what you listen to or why, nor do I care if this is going to be your attitude:

Don’t flatter yourself, I don’t need you to validate my opinion, if you can’t handle the discussion without resorting to attacking me, then boo hoo.

This, coupled with the assertion that an attack on an artist would upset "people," is uproariously funny. If me calling Puddle Of Mudd "shit" would bother you, (and you have essentially said it has) then yes, I assume that wide agreement on the forum would validate you. It is the next logical step. Somehow, that we think this band sucks really bugs you. Either that, or you have asserted that we'd be upset in your position, but not you. In which case you have an unimaginable superiority complex. Which exactly is it -- what was the purpose of your analogy, really?

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You obviously assumed that my analogy was a crack at how you judge music, apart from you misinterpreting that, I may have questioned Mike earlier on in this thread about his beef with POM being related to their mainstream success, and that was due to the course of the discussion earlier, however, I NEVER criticized your methods of how you judge music.

Fair enough. You have my apologies. However, if you're going to draw such analogies -- that you could enter a thread, make gauche, uninformed comments, and thusly draw ire from the board -- then you should expect them to be treated as parallels. I'm honestly at a loss for any other way they could have been interpreted in the context in which it was presented.

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Ok, maybe I assumed wrong, if you say to me that you have listened to their recent album and thought it was shit I will gladly accept that as your opinion,

I haven't heard the album, but I also haven't expressed an opinion on it. You seem to have missed that part.

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Originally posted by Dork:
You made that clear, actually. Still haven't said why it's good though... and, heh, you still basically say it's unimaginative, unskilled, derivative music, in so many words. Shall I quote it again? I mean... there are plenty of bands I enjoy that have similar drawbacks, but at least I know when I'm skewering them.

Earlier I said “It’s not as though anyone here is claiming Puddle Of Mudd are musical legends or geniuses, they’re just a heavy rock band, and if you’re into heavy rock, you could easily put one of their CD’s in your car and enjoy it”. Fair enough, “heavy rock” is not the most descriptive term in which to define any music since it’s easily a wide net. I like POM for the reason that their music is dirty riffs and a full sound belted out in the form of something along the lines of intro, verse, chorus verse chorus, bridge etc, with your typical rocker screamer, in my opinion Wes has a pretty good rock voice. When I say or agree that their music is not the most original or ground breaking music, along with “I agree that 95% of the alternative mainstream bands these days are not completely original, but I choose to see allot of them more as an evolution of the grunge scene with it’s own charm” I intend to say that their music is good by a mainstream or popular standard, but it’s not changing the tide of music or opening up any doors. Over all, I think unless a bit of swearing offends you, the message (if any) in their music is pretty lighthearted and inoffensive, and I believe the lyrics are tailored to be catchy and easily interpreted any way you want them to be to an extent.

Perhaps your standards are such to the point where what I’ve just described above in full can only be considered as sucky, but by a mainstream or pop standard I disagree and still see that it’s obviously intended to be that way, thus I wouldn’t say it sucks, and definitely accomplishes its goal in making me tap my foot to the beat in my car, and getting the lyrics stuck in my head.

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Originally posted by Dork:
This, coupled with the assertion that an attack on an artist would upset "people," is uproariously funny. If me calling Puddle Of Mudd "shit" would bother you, (and you have essentially said it has) then yes, I assume that wide agreement on the forum would validate you. It is the next logical step. Somehow, that we think this band sucks really bugs you. Either that, or you have asserted that we'd be upset in your position, but not you. In which case you have an unimaginable superiority complex. Which exactly is it -- what was the purpose of your analogy, really?

If you just call something shit and leave it at that, I probably wouldn’t try to argue with you, If you tried to argue a reason for something being shit, and I think it’s incorrect, then I would respond, especially if I thought the person making the comment appears to be intelligent, but are choosing to be obnoxious.

As for whether or not if someone putting down an artist I like bothers me, and the point of my analogy. If someone is trying to argue that something I like is shit, and they haven’t really given it the time of day, then I consider that offensive. The point of my analogy is that I think it’s fair to expect some level of respect in approaching a conversation. You can accuse me of a superiority complex and I can just as easily accuse anyone who makes harsh and uninformed judgments in an intellectual manner, of the exact same thing.

“with the assertion that an attack on an artist would upset "people," is uproariously funny”, I don’t know you, Dork, but there must have been some point in your life where you have been offended or have retaliated with an opposing argument because some person spat on something you like, and if you’re telling me that until now, nobody apart from me has ever argued a point of view that differs with your taste or visa-versa, I’d be surprised.

There is a difference between saying you don’t like something and why, and calling something shit. Although I may not always be, I try to be as diplomatic on both sides of the coin as possible, and even though I may have called some artist shit before, I try to avoid do that as much as possible. As stated earlier, I respect anyone who has made music I like or has earned their success.

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Originally posted by Dork:
I'm honestly at a loss for any other way they could have been interpreted in the context in which it was presented.

That’s fair enough; it could have been better worded.

When I said:

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orginnally posted by Miguel Sánchez:
and then without truly listening to one of their albums or the album of topic, just assume that because it’s not mainstream, it’s shit music incapable of even conveying a message and has no purpose to exist because barely anyone listens to it.

I wasn’t trying to say that everyone on Metacritic is anti-mainstream, (there is clearly plenty of threads to prove that, that is not the case) I was just trying to point out that it would be equally as unfounded and insulting as someone dumping on POM without listening to them.

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Originally posted by Dork:
I haven't heard the album, but I also haven't expressed an opinion on it. You seem to have missed that part.

I don’t want to argue you with you anymore since it’s not really about the topic so much as it is about semantics now... And I’m not trying to “prove you wrong”, so perhaps I misinterpreted this as an opinion:

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Originally posted by Dork:

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Originally posted by Maybe Mike:
Here's what the critics have to say.

Heh, I thought the Rolling Stone quote read "Third-rate grunge retards," and I was going to say "BEST BLURB EVER." Damn.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Awe-inspiring Jamshed,

Thank you -- genuinely -- for your well reasoned response.

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“with the assertion that an attack on an artist would upset "people," is uproariously funny”, I don’t know you, Dork, but there must have been some point in your life where you have been offended or have retaliated with an opposing argument because some person spat on something you like, and if you’re telling me that until now, nobody apart from me has ever argued a point of view that differs with your taste or visa-versa, I’d be surprised.

Hmmm, I think you miss my point. I have no reason to be upset. Nor does anyone else.

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There is a difference between saying you don’t like something and why, and calling something shit. Although I may not always be, I try to be as diplomatic on both sides of the coin as possible, and even though I may have called some artist shit before, I try to avoid do that as much as possible. As stated earlier, I respect anyone who has made music I like or has earned their success.

There is a difference, however we have no reason to treat it as such. Even when someone does not add the caveat that it is "only their opinion," they don't need to; that's all they can ever express and the only way anything they say can ever be interpreted.

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I don’t want to argue you with you anymore since it’s not really about the topic so much as it is about semantics now... And I’m not trying to “prove you wrong”, so perhaps I misinterpreted this as an opinion:

I have heard the album in question, I checked it out from my local library several years ago.

"I have heard the album in question, I checked it out from my local library several years ago."

Cool. well, the fact the album is only a couple of months old has confirmed that you're full of shit, rendering every smug input you've said on this thread totally and utterly void. Utterly.

The album in question was Life On Display.

why are you wasting your time talking about that shit?