I'm in murky country trying to understand the minds of conspiracy 'theorists', in particular a sub-species of them called the Hollywood Actor .

I just can't reconcile myself to how these smurfs can attach their high-profile names to causes that even a starved rodent wouldn't deem worthy.

Yesterday, it was Charlie Sheen. He stammered through scripted and platudinous one-liners in a speech he gave supporting some 9/11 conspiracy mongerer. His fan club, in the front row, kept screaming adulations with every peep he made.

On other occasions its been Sean Penn, Charlize Theron, and a large host of other Hollywood low-lights.

I suppose I will get no closer to the truth of the matter than they will but there is always hope that science may one day commission painful biological experiments on these bad smurfs to help us understand what made them into such lowly ingrates that they would exercise their First Amendment Rights without a modicum of responsibility and respect for the nation that provides them with these rights.

Here's to quixotic hopes . . .

I'm sorry, syzgy, but I don't recall Sean Penn, a very fine actor, spouting conspiracy theories. He is left wing though. But that's just sensible, isn't it?

Can you enlighten me, as to what he has said?

Haha ish. As long as he's not too left-wing.

I'm left-wing...

Left-wing is good. Left-wing to the point of communism...is good as long as you don't mean it. I walk around with a Mao hat to freak people out. I'm not a communist, but now everyone thinks I am.

Aaah now, sinister...communism to me is not actually left wing. Socialism, in which I believe, is indeed 'leftie', but communism was just a perversion of socialist ideals, and almost from the moment of its birth resembled totalitarianism and extreme right wing ideology.

But don't trust me, after all here I am in Mao's China, ha ha. (despicable man, just despicable)

I'm talking theoretical here.

And good luck in Maoland

I suppose this is as good a thread as any to tackle this issue, though it really hasn't much to do with the putative topic.

Socialism, communism, leftism.
The fact is, that the Communist Manifesto was a very sensible reaction to a very specific set of conditions in fin d'siecle Europe. As industrialisation geared up, the rural poor were quickly sucked into the urban centers to work the factories. It was a time of little to no worker protection, and exploitation and abuse of workers was widespread. Child labour was normative.

The fact is that Marx believed that England and the US were the most likely locations for the workers' revolution, because they were the two countries that had experienced the most rapid industrialization. The fact of the revolution in Russia was, imo, more of an accident of circumstance. Russia, always 100 years behind the rest of Europe, found itself at the crossroads of several political movements. Anti-monarchism, Nihilism, the first world war and Leninism all meeting in a completely destabilized environment. I think Leninism simply proved the shrewdest and best organized force.

Sadly, Marx's vision, like most utopian visions, proved completely unworkable. Like Mao, however, Marx, Lenin, Che have all proven durable images of simple radicalism. A "negative" stance, rather than a specific political viewpoint. Not so much specific symbols of communism or socialism, as simple symbols of radical opposition to the status quo.

My family experienced "communism" in Cuba, and the picture is not pretty.

Socialism, on the other hand... Not so easy. I see the benefits to Eurosocialism, but, as someone who has worked hard, and now has something to lose, I feel less inclined to give it up to the commonweal.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kendocubano,

quote:

Originally posted by Ishmaels coffin:
I'm sorry, syzgy, but I don't recall Sean Penn, a very fine actor, spouting conspiracy theories. He is left wing though. But that's just sensible, isn't it?

Can you enlighten me, as to what he has said?

said ? how about did ? i have not been following his latest exploits but the last - and enduring - image of him was his propaganda trip to Saddam's totalitarian paradise. The Ba'ath party butchers greeted his arrival with a state reception. He was given a whirlwind tour of all the polished splendors their oppresive conditions could provide - sans the countless mass graves, fourty odd palaces, hidden caches of horded American currency, a handful of magnetic centrifugal components buried in the backyard of their chief nuclear scientist, yaddah yaddah.

You can trust that his motivations were pure and steeped in the truest patriotism.

And in comparison to the words and actions of these and other Hollywood basketcases, Penn stands apart in his actualized depravities.

quote:

Originally posted by kendocubano:
The fact is, that the Communist Manifesto was a very sensible reaction to a very specific set of conditions in fin d'siecle Europe.

i don't see anything 'sensible' in Marx's belief that capitalism was innately flawed and designed from birth to collapse. he objectified the capitalists as much as did the workers and he wrote his history with a capital 'H' (History) in a vain attempt to locate his substitute for God (he was an atheist) in the natural and progressive evolution of society.

his acolytes were as wild in their application of his ideas as he was in diagnosing social ills and prescribing suicidal remedies. they were attracted to each other for a reason.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishmaels coffin:
. .. communism to me is not actually left wing. Socialism, in which I believe, is indeed 'leftie', but communism was just a perversion of socialist ideals, and almost from the moment of its birth resembled totalitarianism and extreme right wing ideology.

you can fudge your definitions to sit your particular psychological peculiarities, even to the point of self-contradiction, but history presents us with examples that would defy most creative efforts to be cute.

fascism, the left's favorite bug-bear, was founded by mussolini, who when he did so was a socialist to the bone who happened to favor italy's military interventions when his comrades did not. So he broke away from them, formed his own party, and gave the young Nationalist-SOCIALIST Adolff Hitler some hope that he could realize the same. Hitler adopted Anton Drexel's 19 point political platform, which embraced a number of prized socialist reforms including state appropriation of 'essential' private businesses. Paging Hugo Chavez . . .

quote:

Originally posted by syzygy:
Marx...wrote his history with a capital 'H' (History) in a vain attempt to locate his substitute for God (he was an atheist)

Heavens! Not that!

Oh no! Atheists!

quote:

fascism, the left's favorite bug-bear, was founded by mussolini, who when he did so was a socialist to the bone who happened to favor italy's military interventions when his comrades did not. So he broke away from them, formed his own party, and gave the young Nationalist-SOCIALIST Adolff Hitler some hope that he could realize the same.

Um, fascism is ultra-right on the political spectrum. Socialism and fascism are on opposite ends of the spectrum. (I assume you're talking about the political spectrum?)

quote:

Originally posted by syzygy:
i don't see anything 'sensible' in Marx's belief that capitalism was innately flawed and designed from birth to collapse.

That's not quite true. Marx actually believed that capitalism was a good thing up to a point. He felt it was the natural progression from slavery and serfdom, but that people were still being exploited. Capitalism brought on the industrial revolution that could allow the lower classes to control the means of production. What Marx didn't predict was how the proletariat preferred liberal socialism (i.e. tiny changes like improved wages and benefits) instead of taking over the state.

quote:

fascism, the left's favorite bug-bear, was founded by mussolini, who when he did so was a socialist to the bone who happened to favor italy's military interventions when his comrades did not.

Mussolini was strongly against socialism and everything it stood for. Fascism may not be the typical view of the right-wing (well, not traditionally, I would argue that the Bush Administration is also a strong proponent of putting the state ahead of individual liberties - not comparing Bush to Mussolini, just making a point) but it certainly wasn't left-wing.

syzygy, I was most certainly not trying to be cute, or fudge anything.
Communism and fascism are NOT socialist.

I don't know the details surrounding Penn, so I won't comment on that, but many of the current Bush admin actively supported Hussain for years, ....so?

You need to do some more reading mate, and avoid the attempts at painting people with your 'outrage.'

Ish, how is it that anything anyone says eventually turns into something about politics?

Bloody hell!! I know!! Hollywood wack jobs becomes Socialism 101...sorry...

Actually kevlarcardhouse, Mussolini did start out as a Socialist before he founded the Fascist Party.

quote:

Originally posted by Ishmaels coffin:
syzygy, I was most certainly not trying to be cute, or fudge anything.
Communism and fascism are NOT socialist.

i was pointing to shared origins. as another poster pointed out, mussolini was a socialist. in fact, his parents drew his first name from a popular mexican socialist and his two middle names from italian socialists. radicalized from birth, he attended the first socialist international, was a socialist party functionary for decades, edited socialist newspapers, wrote socialist anti-clerical tracts . . . see a theme ?

quote:

I don't know the details surrounding Penn, so I won't comment on that, but many of the current Bush admin actively supported Hussain for years, ....so?

don't know ? and you will safely warm up to your carefully preserved ignorance on the subject, no doubt.

as for hussein, he was a godsend of a proxy client who dutifully fulfilled his role at the time against a larger geopolitical threat. that would make him an ally of convenience, a situational 'friend' at best, forged to satisfy mutual self-interests. an ally would be britian, australia, japan . . . not any third world butcher.

quote:

You need to do some more reading mate, and avoid the attempts at painting people with your 'outrage.'

i think your issue is comprehension, something more reading will not help with, and wont stir any outrage either.