I didn't really want to get into this, and as far as I can, I won't. Using all of science and all that you can prove with your senses and logic, go ahead and tell me, where did humans come from and by what EXACT set of circumstances? If you cannot tell me that, then your trust, or should I say "faith", in science is no better than someone's faith in "God", and remember, I haven't even mentioned anything about my God.

It seems to me that what passes for science nowadays is just a form of religion. It substitutes bearded old men philosophers/scientists for allegedly-hoary stories of bearded old men gods. The stories that science advocate require just as much faith, at least concerning this world and our universe, as any "religion" which you and I have ever studied or practiced. (This might seem stupid, but I don't even believe in religion, but I KNOW for a FACT that "Science" may be able to measure the laws of nature, but they cannot explain why they exist or where they come from.)

Also, every time I read about a new "scientific discovery" and study it in-depth, it's amazing how much scientists invoke a form of faith to quantify, qualify and justify their results. I would actually be shocked if philosophers were any different. (I know, pE, I'm really going off the deep end, but at least I did take a year at Irvine on The History of Philosophy.) I consider philosophers to be social scientists, but it's interesting in how pE brought up "analytical", because in earlier [more/less superstitious times (???)], most philosophers discussed things vis-a-vis some form of spirituality.

P.S. I have a degree in Biological Sciences from The University of California at Irvine, so it's not like science is something I don't keep up with and am not explicitly trying to PROVE is better than some less-well-regarded alternative.

P.P.S. This is BS, but I find it pretty-interesting BS, since technically, everything is BS. Or then again, everything might be unbelieveably important. Do you want your life to be BS or important? Does belief in things you "can't prove" have any affect on YOUR answer to the question about YOUR life?

Several gators just ate my ass for being a long-winded SOB. Maybe I'll get reincarnated (don't really count on it), so I might see you later, Alligator.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mark f,

Soadlover,

Sorry about that, my intentions were not to insult you indivudally, just to comment collectively on the discussions that I have had. As for religions in North America, most Native American religions shy away from the binary of heaven/hell.

I'm glad someone brought up science, which, when it comes right down to it, is based on just as much faith as religion, maybe even more so. Indulge me for a moment.

Science is based largely on the concept of creating hypothosese and then disproving them. Nothing in science is considered to be unrefutable truth, because each claim is essentially based on the notion that someday a greater truth could emerge. In a sense, science is dependent upon the idea that every claim will someday become disproved. If this were not the case, the science would eventually become obsolete. Remember, science at one point "knew" that the world was flat.

As for philosophy and logic, I will defer to (I can't remember whom, Socrates, I think?): What hath Athens to do with Jerusalem?

quote:

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Originally posted by mark f:


It seems to me that what passes for science nowadays is just a form of religion. It substitutes bearded old men philosophers/scientists for allegedly-hoary stories of bearded old men gods. The stories that science advocate require just as much faith, at least concerning this world and our universe, as any "religion" which you and I have ever studied or practiced. (This might seem stupid, but I don't even believe in religion, but I KNOW for a FACT that "Science" may be able to measure the laws of nature, but they cannot explain why they exist or where they come from.)

Also, every time I read about a new "scientific discovery" and study it in-depth, it's amazing how much scientists invoke a form of faith to quantify, qualify and justify their results. I would actually be shocked if philosophers were any different. (I know, pE, I'm really going off the deep end, but at least I did take a year at Irvine on The History of Philosophy.) I consider philosophers to be social scientists, but it's interesting in how pE brought up "analytical", because in earlier [more/less superstitious times (???)], most philosophers discussed things _vis-a-vis_ some form of spirituality.

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You make some really nice points, mark, and I'm not really sure I have much that I can say in response. There is a certain "leap of faith", to give Kierkegaard his due, that you have to make to beleieve almost anything as a foundational view.

Here's my only way of trying to explain my choice: I have a rudimentary understanding of how the theory of gravity works. Nothing that I have every experienced plays against gravity...when I drop something, it falls. There are various scientific ways to "prove" gravity. So, I have to take it on faith vis-a-vis practical experience that gravity is "true."

I don't see a clear, shining example of the same thing being possible for God. There are lots of "proofs" of God, including cosmological, ontological, and design arguments, but I'm not sure they "prove" God, nor do I think people can actually claim to "understand" God. Maybe it takes a certain kind of perception of something, as Jackietheblade points out, and then that leap of faith to get it.

Regardless, I can see why science gets turned into a new religion. I work in a program connected to the philosophy of neuroscience, and am constantly being bombarded with physicalism...we are, merely, our physical bodies. Minds, mental states, souls...these are all just physical brain states going on. Our complex mental worlds are just neutrons firing. I'm not sure I'm willing to go that far. So, I can see why the theist isn't willing to take the step that I take.

I can respect that Machols, you see "God" as a sort of "First Mover." I would be willing to believe that rather than flat out religion where god is watching you. But how can you say "God is not A being, but IS being. God/Truth is what the universe is doing Right Now, this Eternal Moment" without any evidence to speak of, I respect your opinions because you seem very intelligent but I guess it is just one of those feelings that religious individuals get.

What is not evidence? or better yet... what is evidence?

Aristotle's unmoved mover is a bit different from what I am talking about. But that is a fine way to understand it I suppose. I do not remember how his proposal of the unmoved mover was refuted, but it was, as I remember. You wouldn't be able to refute what I am suggesting, because if you were, there would be no 'you' to speak of.

The way we understand time is like an artifact or tool...something made, but in what anyone can understand of objective reality, time may as well be a toupee, it has no more to do with the ultimate nature of things/being. I mean, there are no mondays, hours, seconds, months, years, light years. The ideas of 'past' and 'future' from an objective viewpoint are ludicris; there is nothing but eternal present, the first yes/breath fulfilling infinite potential. The idea of 'first' is even ludicris. Everything is ludicris. Everything is amazing beyond words.

So...that's it then, huh? I single-handedly ended all possible arguments and now we all believe in the existence of God and that's that, correct?



......so.....isn't this great, or what?

Machols, under your definition of God, it is hard to tell the difference between God and existance. In fact, you say they are the same thing. So... why use two different terms, especially when one of them is used in a very different manner my most people?

As for science taking as much faith as religion, well, I have to disagree. You can argue that science takes some degree of faith, and it does, but I should think that in most cases it takes less faith to believe in fossil dating and the hypothesis of modern science than in the Bible.

I reserve the right to be entirely wrong.

Sorry for not posting more quickly but I generally stay away from the computer on the weekends. I totally agree with Compman existence does not equal God nor does God equal existence, and in reply to your question Comp the reasont that there are two terms is for individuals who think that there life is not directed by the workings of another. that is a very naturalistic view to take on the subject Machols, a sort of "God is everywhere" approach that was taken around the late 1800s.

To tell you the god's honest truth, if we all died tomorrow from a massive attack of the plague, and our species and the world were finito, ad infinitum, it probably would have no affect on me whatsoever. But, what I really what to know from those of you who are agnostic/atheistic/uncaring, would it matter to you and your families? The world is OVER and so are YOU! Does that thought somehow make you feel comforted in your INNER STRENGTH, KNOWING that there is no meaning whatsoever to anything that you and your "loved" ones (remember, love had no "meaning") ever did?

No more later, Gator.

Love, Any Survivors (if you care!)

P.S. As I said somewhere else, I'm just as dead as a door nail as you are. My so-called knowledge of the "truth" is completely-cancelled-out because I am a horrible excuse for a "human being", but that doesn't mean that YOU are!

Remember, many people who believe in God and have a religion also believe in either an after life or reincarnation of some sort. So, people dont neccesarily think of the end of this lifetime, being the end of eternity for your soul. They think maybe of it as a new beginning. Or an ending to this life and a start to the next. Or an entrance to heaven or hell or to some sort of afterlife.

As for science, even though I cant go against it and do believe in it. As I think I mentioned before, there isnt an explanation of science for everything. There is something deeper than what we portray as this materialistic world, something unexplainable. I believe that it is hard to be happy, at least it would be for me, to not believe in God for than questions arise as your meaning or purpose.

Some other things that I believe in-

Serve others and you will serve yourself.

People cause much pain to others but really, the most pain is brought to themselves.

You think you are unhappy because you dont have your new dvd player. You think you're unhappy because you dont have the new 30 gb ipod. But really your unhappy because you do not love yourself.

The World and this universe to every person is based solely on how that person sees it and how that person wants to see it. Look at the world through another person's eyes, and you will see things you never thought existed.

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I don't personally care about things that may happen after me, I don't think there is some spiritual place that all the dead people go to we are all just ashes/in coffins. If everybody died tommorrow, it is a depressing thought that me as well as my family is gone, but does it really matter, no, no one really matters, we all make a difference everyday for good or bad, but so what? In a couple decades human beings will destroy themselves anyway. Of course it would be extremely sad, but it doesn't matter. I just look at life as if I am here for as long as I can be and try to live life a day at a time.

I am 13 so my opinion to many of you is probably meaningless but even so I wish to share my opinions on this topic. I believe that if you start to think about what matters or not and say that death and life and human kind destroying themselves doesnt matter than what does matter? Surely if that doesnt matter, nothing does. I think that if you start looking at life as meaningless, you will never be happy and everything you do will seem purposeless. I am not the all-knowing being, even though my title says otherwise, so I dont exactly know what my meaning is. But I do know that if we were put on this earth, there must be a meaning for us. A meaning for mankind even to exist. I think the meaning is to make others happy and enhance the world and its greatness. Also to find that God lives within you and to become one with that God.

But I also understand humans are just a tiny little microscopic thing in this huge, neverending universe. There could be millions of other earths just like this one. So, for just humankind to get knocked out doesnt seem like that large of a deal. Maybe it isnt that big of a deal to the universe as a whole, but I know its a big deal to me and billions of other people in this world.

I don't know much but I do know a couple truths:
1. My intelligence is only exceeded by my stupidity
2. We will all die, and Man will eventually destory themselves
3. I am a very strange person compared to many

Now to your post, I realize that the destruction of life on Earth is a "Big deal" but I mean does it really matter? No, Earth would be better off wtihout us. I am by no means saying that I do not care about life, but I am saying that our deaths our not important, IF there is an afterlife or not our lives are not significant in the big picture. I am not one of those depressed people in society I am actually quite the opposite, nor do I have low self-esteem but our deaths aren't really quite a large deal.

What really is our meaning? There really isn't one, unless it is to ruin Earth and become a terrible society that will destroy itself.

I enjoy every day of my existence on this planet I just don't think that it has a purpose or meaning.

quote:

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Originally posted by Soadlover:
I don't know much but I do know a couple truths:
1. My intelligence is only exceeded by my stupidity
2. We will all die, and Man will eventually destory themselves
3. I am a very strange person compared to many

Now to your post, I realize that the destruction of life on Earth is a "Big deal" but I mean does it really matter? No, Earth would be better off wtihout us. I am by no means saying that I do not care about life, but I am saying that our deaths our not important, IF there is an afterlife or not our lives are not significant in the big picture. I am not one of those depressed people in society I am actually quite the opposite, nor do I have low self-esteem but our deaths aren't really quite a large deal.

What really is our meaning? There really isn't one, unless it is to ruin Earth and become a terrible society that will destroy itself.

I enjoy every day of my existence on this planet I just don't think that it has a purpose or meaning.

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Death is important. I cant say whether there is an afterlife or not but if there isnt, than dying is like the universe and mankind being destroyed right in front of your eyes, atleast to your perspective. The Earth as lanscape and nature would be better without us but what does that matter? the plants wont notice the difference whether we're gone or not.

But you could look at it in another, much less selfish way as well. Dying may be just as the dinasours died, giving way to different beings or creatures in millions of years to come. We could just be another small step out of quadrillions that have been going on for eternity. Just another "thing" that occured in this universe. Or, optimistically, our minds could develop over time and humanity could live on for eternity, developing and becoming aware of love and god around us.

We'll just have to wait and see what happends.

I see humans as a highly devoloped animal, no more, no less. This is starting to get way off topic from religion to the meaning of life, but I'll go with it. What exactly is our purpose, is there any reason that we are important to anything other than each other. In my opinion, saying that we are anything more than animals and that our lives are more important than any other animals is more selfish than the belief that humans have some higher purpose. Yes we are humans, but I do not see how that changes anything.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: St. Mike,

I specifically stated in my past quote that, that was selfish. I would never think that thinking humans are insignificant is selfish for those are two things that have no relation. I never said that our lives mean more than animal's lives, I stated that animals wont be affected whether the world is gone or not as humans will. I have science on my side, whether anyone cares or not, in saying that humans think and interact at a higher level in intellegence than other animals. but that in my opinion has no meaning whatsoever, but according to you, life altogether doesnt have any meaning.

It appears that I have offended you and I apologize, I was merely expressing my opinions. Sorry Know-it-all I by no means wanted to offend you.

quote:

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Originally posted by Soadlover:
I enjoy every day of my existence on this planet I just don't think that it has a purpose or meaning.

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There's not much I can add to this debate, but I do think that, religious or not, we can give our lives purpose and meaning. We do. Is it one overarching purpose, shared by all? I'm not willing to say that. But purpose is where you find it.

And Machols...your God=existence argument is an interesting one. It has roots in Eastern philosophy and religion, and it has always fascinated me. When people say things like that, I always wish that I could really UNDERSTAND them in the way they do. But I never can.

One question...you talk about all of the beauty and goodness in the world as proof of God's presence. What about the ugliness, evil, and genocide? I don't think the problem of evil is a knock-down argument against God, but it does seem to push against your claim that everything is beautiful, ergo God is everything and everywhere.

Of course you can give your life a purpose, but the purpose of humans as a whole is what I am talking about. You can help out your fellow man but what really has the existence of man contributed to other than improving the life of other humans?

Well, why isnt that a purpose, serving others and giving others happiness? Why does our purpose have to be to conquer something or to go to a certain area or something. Man has contributed, at least, I have and will try to in my future life to the earth around us, the animals, the environment and other people. To make peace in this place of so many wars. To give love to this place of so much hatred. To try and make this world a better place for future generations. Humans have evolved greatly in the past couple million years. If we help and teach others how to treat others with respect and peace, than we may grow to even a new, higher level that our minds can't even comprehend. THe level where you see god in everyone and love everyone, no matter what they look like. The level Where everyone is at peace, and it is like one big family in the world. I know its a very far off dream, but it sound satisfying enough to me, to try and strive to help the world get there.