Well, after reading some of the post about "The Exorcist" and reading LT's suggestion to take the debate here, I am suprised that nobody has. So now I am. What are your thoughts on religion?

On religion as a whole? Its relevance to movies, music?

As a whole. This one is hard to start off with because in the beginning there is nobody to discredit or disagree with. So I will start...I think that religion is very important for some people because they have to use it as a crutch. For example, when something happens that is uncontrollable you can always say "Its in God's hands" I also think that people who are extremely religious, southern rednecks, tend to force their beliefs upon others, something that the president does often on his positions with gay marriage and abortion.

Edit: Ha, I am a know-it-all now, nice.

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I agree. Religion or god is something to go to in times of need or when everything is bad and you just need help. Or if something unexplanatory happends or something. Also it is used to explain your purpose in life. If you dont believe in god, the world seems boring, like you know everything but everything doesnt always have an answer and cant always be explained with science. Even though I think that religion should have nothing to do with government, I feel that anybody can believe anything about god or figures of god, even if it is or sounds totally radical. Oh and by the was Soadlover, nice job becoming a know-it-all in 10 days.

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Originally posted by know_it_all:
If you dont believe in god, the world seems boring, like you know everything but everything doesnt always have an answer and cant always be explained with science.

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That isn't true, I am not a believer in an omnipresent being, but my life isn't boring. I don't think that I know everything nor do I think that science knows the answer to everything. But I shall not believe in something when there is no proof in its existence. I used my reference to a crutch in a negative way, I should have said it is an excuse for people not to worry. Sorry I was unclear about that.

Thanks for the compliment on my ten day transformation.

I would just like to say that lets try to keep this as impersonal as possible because I realize that many have strong feelings on the subject.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mikey Rocks,

I pretty much agree with soadlover. I used to be Catholic, and go to a Catholic school, so I know both sides pretty well. Relgion is good for some people. I have a lot of respect for people with religious vocations. However, I don't think it's for me.

My parents, for whatever reason, disagree with me, much to my dismay....

I appreciate the respectful tone of this discussion. I'm a "non-practicing" Catholic, in the sense that I went to Church and Sunday School as a kid, went to Catholic H.S., etc., but I don't go to Church now, but I still believe in God and the basic tenets of faith.

The reason I say I respect this discussion is that my ex-girlfriend is an athiest, which is FINE by me. I respect that. But she didn't respect my belief in God. Her literal statement to me was "Anybody who reads or believes in any aspect of the Bible is deluding himself." She talked about religion being the opiate of the people, and that most every religious person is mentally ill.

Needless to say, those are extreme views (and we broke up after a few months). She offends 95% of the world with her views, but the bottom line is that she didn't give me the same respect I gave her on the subject. And I'm freakin' Catholic! Not some Bible-Knocking fundamentalist who judges others, and claims those who don't believe J.C. per se is God is going to to be damned. I just happen to believe in a higher power entity called God and don't impose that on others.

(Boy, just thinking about this aspect of that chick gives me the willies again!!)

Being the extremist that I am, let me just say to everybody (in an extremely-FRIENDLY manner), if you actually believe that humankind is the apex of the universe, I'd love to hear your "evidence." (Plus the fact that you're convinced that we are f*ck*d now and forever...although that one I might give you...)

If you don't think that by some misbegotten twist of universal fate that we are the be-all and end-all, then why haven't you done anything in your life to find out about it? NO ONE HAS to do anything about anything, but if you're going to discuss something, then maybe you should have made an "objective" examination of the options involved.

Shut up, gator (that's about where I am on the evolutionary scale, but you better watch it or I'll chew your ass.)

Of courese I understand that people can not believe in god and be perfectly happy, I just think that sometimes people who do not believe in god have nothing to turn to or dont know their meaning because they cant refer to some religious meaning. Its something to attach to and hold on to, something that you can love and cherish and live for. Atleast it would be hard for me to live, knowing that this world is it, us people and movies, music, games, they entertain us but what is our meaning? I turn to god to find a meaning for why we were put here, maybe some think it was to do a duty of his, others think he meant for us to bring something to others. Its hard for me to get across the meaning of the subject and my feelings towards it so I understand if this sounds absurd and doesnt mean anything.

I'm not sure that failing to beleive in God is to make the stronger claim that humankind is the "apex of the universe", as you say, mark. But I understand why someone might think so.
You could be an atheist and beleive that the immutable laws of nature were the apex, or that the apex hasn't even been reached, as of yet. I think you can find meaning without having to appeal to some highest possible source (God, science, whatever)...we can find it in ourselves, each other, in art, in literature, in the solace of nature. If it's egocentric to say we find meaning in humanity, I can't argue. But it's all that I can feel CERTAIN about. I'm not quite able to hedge my bets on something that I'm not certain exists.

Personally, I understand why religion is important. My own agnosticism is tempered by a pretty visceral awareness of how important religion is (one of my undergrad degrees was in Comparative Religion for goodness sakes) but, as I've noted in other (political) posts, I'm not comfortable with religion being forced on anyone.

Religion has led people (a lot of them) to do some awful things. But it also provides a lot of solace and hope for a lot of people. I don't criticize religion for several reasons:

1. I don't feel its fair to challenge a view whose claims and premisses aren't perceived or understood by me.
2. I'm happy to let all of the beliefs of others peacefully exist, as long as they don't impose on my own freedom to NOT beleive. This is why I hate being proselitized...
3. I hope that people are thoughtful about their faith, and not dogmatic. Believing in God because you were told to isn't a great reason, on my estimation. But most religious people reach their faith by challenging it, and that seems like a sound reason for holding a view.

Maybe my failure to accept God makes me a little bit "alone in the universe." That's why I'm an agnostic, and not an atheist. I still have a lingering doubt that there might be something I don't get yet. Maybe someday I'll see it.

You are a very wise agnostic pE, and I don't mean to proselytize. If I didn't know any better, I'd be an agnostic. This isn't meant as any relief to me, since I'm a lousy example for anyone to follow. Just look at the forums, after all.

pE, if you or any of your loved ones REALLY NEED ANYTHING, and you're unsure of anyone else, if you're able, ask me to help. I realize that's complete BS, but once you or any other open-ended gators here partake of my BS, maybe it will mean something.

It seems that most people believe in an omnipresent being due to a fear of death. I know that when I was religious (several years ago) that is what it was for me. All religions not just Christianity have a purgatory and it is used to scare people into being better. And of course those extremist Christians always say, "I'd rather get there and find out that it is a sham, then get there without being religious and go to hell." I guess that is alright for most but in my opinion, if you are a good person and if there is a (insert your percieved heaven here) then person you should go to that destination, the belief in God of over Buddha isn't exactly the way to go. One shouldn't be forced into devoting every (insert your sabbath day) to religion, because after all, almost every religious groups think that people in other groups are sinners and therefore bound to live eternity in their so called hell.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mikey Rocks,

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Originally posted by mark f:
You are a very wise agnostic pE, and I don't mean to proselytize. If I didn't know any better, I'd be an agnostic. This isn't meant as any relief to me, since I'm a lousy example for anyone to follow. Just look at the forums, after all.

pE, if you or any of your loved ones REALLY NEED ANYTHING, and you're unsure of anyone else, if you're able, ask me to help. I realize that's complete BS, but once you or any other open-ended gators here partake of my BS, maybe it will mean something.

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Thanks for the kind words, mark.

And, for the record, nobody here has been proselytizing. Having spent 10 years in the south, however, I was constantly being bombarded with people trying to "save" me or to invite me to their Bible study. I had a t-shirt made up, when I was in college, that said "No, I don't want to go to your Bible study" because I was so tired of reflecting the proselytization.

This is friendly talk on religion. If someone's mind is changed, all the better. But nobody is pushing anything on anyone else.

Peace and love, folks. Peace and love.

Look around you at nature. God is there. Look in the eyes of a newborn baby, God is there. Although I was raised as a Christian, only a few years ago I was at a place where I new I was going to hell because of the way I was living my life. But God had different plans. I won't tell the story here (pm me if you really want to know) but I am thankful. Read the Bible with an open heart and it will change your life. I love all you guys and someone else does too.

Thank you for the kind words Jackie. But how can one know that something is there if there is no proof of it? I realize that it is just a feeling, as I used to be religious, but is it there because you want it to be there or because it actually is?

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Originally posted by JackietheBlade:
Look around you at nature. God is there. Look in the eyes of a newborn baby, God is there. Although I was raised as a Christian, only a few years ago I was at a place where I new I was going to hell because of the way I was living my life. But God had different plans. I won't tell the story here (pm me if you really want to know) but I am thankful. Read the Bible with an open heart and it will change your life. I love all you guys and someone else does too.

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It's statements like these that make me realize that, despite my own doubts, that religion is a very vital and valuable force in the lives of many. I think Jackie's sentiment is one of the primary reasons why religion, for all of its warts and flaws, has great value.

Even though I think religion is important for everybody I also understand that it has led people to start wars around the world, kill millions and do many, many bad things. so I think that religion is definitely something that you should share with yourself and god and let others share or practice as they please even if it looks unbelievably stupid to you or is against everything you believe in. I dont think religion should be part of your interaction with other people or judging other people.

You ever notice that conversations such as this one are very, very rarely started by someone who has a preferred religion? In my experience, it's more often than not the atheist who brings up questions like this. Just a thought.

There are a plethora of ways to examine the validity of God, (or god(s), if you prefer), and pretty much all of them have been discussed ad nauseum by a number of philosophers whose published libraries prove they are smarter than I. Further, these views have been regurgitated at an almost Pavlovian rate, such as RayRay's ex-girlfriend paraphrasing of Karl Marx. (Come to think of it, where the heck would the Liberal Arts School Athiest be without the writings of Marx and misinterpretations of Nietzsche?)

As for this discussion, there seems to be a shared definition of "religion" and "faith", two words that in actuality have very different meanings. Faith, as most current philosophical and religious scholars view it, is the belief in something that exists outside of rational explaination. Religion, on the other hand, is an established dogma based on a certain, shared faith.

Faith stretches to cover many areas, of varing importance. For instance, your faith could lead you to believe that God created the heavens and the earth and all creation as we know it in six days, it could make you believe that Norte Dame will win out and make a BCS game, or that your wife won't ever cheat on you. What those three instances have in common is that at the current moment, you, or anyone else for that matter, cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they are logically true. Therefore, to believe that any of those three are indeed true requires a certian degree of faith. You'd like to believe that each one is true, but unless you can't actually prove it. Perhaps someday it will prove to be that your wife never cheated on you and the Irish win at USC, but as for what is happening right this very moment, you can't prove either one anymore than you can prove that God created existence. The last one, just like the first two, could prove to be true, but if we can't currently prove it, then we can't currently claim that it is truth.

As for religion, I believe that there are good and bad things to be found in it. On the bad side, yes there have been many horrible things done in the name of religious order. On the other hand, a vast majority of the people in this world who do philanthropic work come from religious groups.

One last point, not every religion has a "heaven and hell". There are a near-innumerable amount of different religions out there, and making broad claims about them, whether it be about the practices themselves or the people who believe, shows a pretty severe lack of intellect.

Most religions in the United States have heaven/hell, yes I realize that there are many different types of religions that do not have the two theoretical places. I kind of think you are starting to get personal with your attack on my intelligence however I will not do likewise towards you. I do not like the term "Atheist" either, because after all that in itself is a sort of religion, I just tend to lean very much so towards science due to logical explinations for things unlike Christianity, which bases an entire religion upon a book and a percieved feeling that one has. And although And to reply to your observation "You ever notice that conversations such as this one are very, very rarely started by someone who has a preferred religion? In my experience, it's more often than not the atheist who brings up questions like this. Just a thought." I had no other motives for starting this thread other than the fact that I was intrigued to see others thoughts on the subject.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mikey Rocks,

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Originally posted by rockbotle:

Faith stretches to cover many areas, of varing importance. For instance, your faith could lead you to believe that God created the heavens and the earth and all creation as we know it in six days, it could make you believe that Norte Dame will win out and make a BCS game, or that your wife won't ever cheat on you.

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It's funny you mention Notre Dame. It reminds me of a funny thing once asked of me, which isn't really that funny, but I'll share it anyways.

A group of philosophers and myself were at a concert (I think it was The Meat Purveyors) and a mutual friend (a mathematician and theist) was doing a straw poll about God. Of the group of us, 9 out of 10 claimed to be atheists or agnostics. The 10th claimed not to be certain either way. He asked me "why are all philosophers atheists or agnostics?" All I could say, in response, was that they're not ALL atheists or agnostics...but the ones that aren't all teach at Notre Dame. It's kind of funny if you know the general landscape of how philosophy programs approach religion. Notre Dame is one of the few big-time philosophy programs to openly endorse religion.

It's not just Marx and Nietzsche that have dealt a harsh blow to religion. The 20th century philosophical move toward what many call "analytic" philosophy is just as responsible, I'd say. Bertrand Russell's "Why I am not a Christian" comes to mind.

In the end, my problem with religion (seen from the lens of an analytic philosopher) is that it seems to me to admit of no proof. It can't make claims to TRUTH, as Rockbotle points out. Jackietheblade said that the proof of God is in nature and in the eyes of a newborn. But to someone who just doesn't SEE that, there's not any other way to prove it. It doesn't mean that it's false, but those of us who want to have claims like "God exists" be able to be subject to some sort of scientific or linguistic truth or falsity are left cold by claims of faith as being TRUE. I've read a lot of philosophy of religion, and I've yet to find a good way to resolve this tension.