Edwards and Kerry are both religious guys, they both oppose gay marriage (but don't admittedly want a K amendment for it), but it seems to me, after the last two debates, that they are both truly anti-gay. Why else would both men make an extra effort to "out" Dick Cheney's daughter so obviously and abruptly?? That was classless... Cheney is proud of his daughter and has spoken out in support of her. He has acknowleged that he differes with Bush but must support the administration's overall position. Who the hell to Edwards and Kerry think they are to bring that girl into the debate???? Are they trying to scare off conservative christians from voting for the republicans?? If so, that's the dirtiest series of political moves I've ever seen. CLASSLESS!

No, I don't think that either guy is anti-gay, but they both fell victim to their handlers on this one. It couldn't have been a coincidence that they both "called out" Cheney's daughter. I agree that it impugnes their sense of class.

Also, I was a little puzzled at Kerry's confidence that being gay is something you're born with. I have two gay friends who explained it to me this way: It shouldn't matter. If you're born gay or choose to be gay, being gay is a perfectly valid thing to be. They told me that many people who say "he's born with it! He can't help it!" make it seem like being gay is like having a disease that one can't help and it should therefore be "excused".

One of them also told me about his "Vanilla Shake" theory. "I like Vanilla shakes... I've always ordered them and probably always will... I don't dwell on why I like them. Was I born with it?? Did something my parents did as a kid make me like Vanilla more than chocolate shakes?? Who cares?"

Bush stated that he doesn't know if it's nature or nurture. I think that was probably a more honest answer to the question as there is no concensus in the scientific community regarding that question. He probably lost some votes from the Christian right who probably would have preferred that he say it was a "choice."

But back to the Dems. They should just be themselves on these issues and stop letting their handlers make them appear so calculating and coldhearted. They are both very decent men and clearly care about the people of this country. Personal attacks on their opponents families will erode that image if they keep it up. Leave the kids out of it, boyz....

I didn't really watch the third debate, although my 13-year-old daughter mentioned it more than once, so I put it on even though we had family over and were doing other things. So, I'm going to advocate Camper Van Beethoven for President. I realize that we don't usually vote for six-headed hydrae as presidents, but that helps get rid of the idea of a dictator. I'm actually serious, but I guess we need to amend the Constitution, or at least, a few election laws. Too bad, it would be so much easier to trust the people you vote for than to go through all the problems of "legitimizing" them to the point where you don't trust them anymore. David Lowery and Co. are all right by me. They at least tell the truth, even if you think it's too hard to swallow ("Civil Disobedience" is one of the most honest songs I've ever heard, so needless to say, it won't be popular for awhile...or at least until the younger generation has had enough BS.) Plus, they rock with God! (or whatever you equate as the Best!)

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Originally posted by mark f:
So, I'm going to advocate Camper Van Beethoven for President.

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What an idea, mark! A six-person presidential committee consisting of some Santa Cruz stoners. Johnny, from Cracker, who plays on the new record, can be Secretary of State. I assume there will be a liberalization of drug policy, no push to clarify whether gay people should be alloowed to marry (who cares, says President CVB), and a different take on foreign policy. I'm with you...a vote for President CVB is a vote for America! And, we can resolve raical issues by, f'rinstance, taking the skinheads bowling!

By the way...if you think this new CVB is fairly political, check out the classic song "Sweethearts" from Key Lime Pie for the line "In the mind of Ronald Reagan/wheels they turn and gears they grind..."

mark...check out the "heads up" column for a CVB tip...

I admit...I watched the Cardinals, not the debate. I've not seen word one of the debate, but it sounds like both sides were pretty classless in using someone's child as a political pointmaker. That's one reason why American politics is terrible...

Maybe its cuz I dont like Bush at all, but to me Kerry killed Bush in all 3 debates! 3 and 0 in my book.

Kerry is an excellent debater. That being said, I think Bush had him on the defensive for a lot of the night, which is exactly where he needed him. Personally, I think candidates from all major parties should be allowed a nationally televised debate so the American people can see that there are actually more than two choices out there. Since I know Bush is going to easily win my state, I'm considering voting with the Constitution Party. That is where the country needs to head. Back to its constitutional roots where things were cut and dried, we weren't getting bogged down with all the bureaucratic nonsense and values actually meant something.