quote:

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
Opposable thumbs + Evolved brains What if they were missing one?

Aw, you remembered, Monkey_Boy. I’m touched. ;-)

The answer is that they’d either be like dolphins (evolved brains, but can’t build shit) or primates (opposable thumbs and dumber than a sack of hammers).

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I recall some ancient hieroglyphics from a TV show long ago depicting what looked to be visitors from the sky. Of course, an ancient drawing is hardly evidence, but the idea of extraterrestrials could have existed at the beginning of our recorded time. Interesting, but nothing more, I suppose.

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I have to ask this, Monkey_Boy, what scientific “leaps of faith” are you not skeptical of?

quote:

Originally posted by Echolocating:

quote:

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
Opposable thumbs + Evolved brains What if they were missing one?

Aw, you remembered, Monkey_Boy. I’m touched. ;-)

Despite what some people may think, I do pay attention to what I'm reading & can pretty much keep track of who said what .

quote:

I recall some ancient hieroglyphics from a TV show long ago depicting what looked to be visitors from the sky. Of course, an ancient drawing is hardly evidence, but the idea of extraterrestrials could have existed at the beginning of our recorded time.

I look at those as a primitive people imagining the "gods" came to visit. ALL of their gods were things of the sky, the Sun, the Moon, & the Stars. Maybe even the clouds? That is how I view those images, I guess. I mean, the aliens that showed up then apparently talked to EVERYONE, why wouldn't they keep up the communication?

quote:

I have to ask this, Monkey_Boy, what scientific “leaps of faith” are you not skeptical of?

Well, just the things that I can't seem to make sense. Like I said before, I don't believe in evolution because I just can't imagine that we were once mindless animals that just happened to evolve into man, NOT because I believe in God. I don't believe in space travel because I truly do see it as pure Science Fiction. I understand that unmanned missions are possible, but to think of people heading to a solar system, knowing they'll have no true way of being compensated for their time, effort & discoveries. How do they expect to get paid or even spend the money they've earned if they'll never make it back home? I NEVER said there are NO aliens, I've only asked the question as to why everyone is more willing to believe aliens are more advanced than we are. Has this thought never occured to anyone?

I really do enjoy all sides of a discussion, which is the main reason I come up with so many questions, even the apparently stupid ones. Really, nobody else seems to disagree with the whole idea except me. You gotta have someone to argue with . What's the point of just saying "I agree" over & over?

quote:

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
I don't believe in space travel because I truly do see it as pure Science Fiction. I understand that unmanned missions are possible, but to think of people heading to a solar system, knowing they'll have no true way of being compensated for their time, effort & discoveries. How do they expect to get paid or even spend the money they've earned if they'll never make it back home? I NEVER said there are NO aliens, I've only asked the question as to why everyone is more willing to believe aliens are more advanced than we are. Has this thought never occured to anyone?

A couple points:

1. Interstellar space travel (for man) is science fiction right now. Are you aware than many great technological innovations started as science fiction?

2. You don't think we could find volunteers to man an interstellar space flight, because there might not be a way to fairly compensate them? I think you're wrong about that. The reward of experiencing something no one has ever experienced would be enough for a lot of people.

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:
You don't think we could find volunteers to man an interstellar space flight, because there might not be a way to fairly compensate them? I think you're wrong about that. The reward of experiencing something no one has ever experienced would be enough for a lot of people.

You could be right on that point, Eric to the G. You could be right.

They'd have to bring whole families - because a bunch of old people would just die out in space, and that's no good, is it?

quote:

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:
You don't think we could find volunteers to man an interstellar space flight, because there might not be a way to fairly compensate them? I think you're wrong about that. The reward of experiencing something no one has ever experienced would be enough for a lot of people.

You could be right on that point, Eric to the G. You could be right.

My entire family has dreamt of visiting new worlds and would go in a heartbeat.

quote:

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
Well, just the things that I can't seem to make sense. Like I said before, I don't believe in evolution because I just can't imagine that we were once mindless animals that just happened to evolve into man, NOT because I believe in God.

So, basically, because it offends you, you're going against all the evidence? :/ I'd like to think that being Gay is a choice rather than something you're born with, (I'm on the "Nurture" side of that debate) but the evidence goes against me; denying it would be stupid, the equivalent of saying that my preferences held more weight than research and proof.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Dork,

I like to stay away from bigger threads like this because I usually don't feel like reading through XX pages and by that time I'm not sure how much I'll contribute (why I've never poked around much in the religion/politics threads despite both being endless fascinating) but I'll just throw out words here.

An alien race to be something other than bacteria or super intelligent seems to me even more probable than the extremes (given how much space is between them.) Not identical to us or even that close, but...you know, some similarities. To use the random number between two people on different sides of the Earth, not the same number, but...close-ish.

The "Why would they come that far just to watch?" question: I imagine it's because they're THAT advanced. Beyond even being able to do it, to the point where it's that level of triviality.

The "Look how hard it would be for us/them to do" idea: Knowledge isn't linear, which is to say, learning itself learns (or changes and rates of change change). It's like...quadratic, or exponential. Think of how much we learned in the last hundred years compared to the hundred years before that. I think if you're of the opinion that "the universe is a big place so there has to be other life somewhere", "the universe is a big place so SOMEWHERE somebody is smart enough to do this" has to follow, same with a pseudo-similar race.

And I think before we can do any of this, things have to change first, more important things. I really wish space travel was the biggest problem facing us Think of all the human minds going to waste because of poverty and oppression and environmental etc. etc. We really have to come together as a planet for one another before we can start getting this stuff off the ground (PUN!) But that kind of negates a need for people to be compensated, because at the bare minimum they're doing something unpleasant to benefit the masses (and c'mon, who thinks traveling space sucks?) And I think that kind of makes an idea of intergalactic conquest silly too, I gotta think by the time a race figures out how to travel light years they're beyond exploitation and non-renewable resources. But unfortunately, I don't see us coming close to these changes any time remotely soon. I think global destruction is much more probable right now. BUT, interestingly, I want to believe all this - expanded human consciousness ("God" in a pantheistic kind of way), life far more advanced than ours - for the same reason I'm sure a lot of people do, hope. The world is shitty, I want it to not be shitty. And I don't think there's anything wrong if you acknowledge it

Gah, so I'm awful at trying to convey thoughts. Everyone feel free to rip this apart

This article is absolutely fascinating. Ti's like, wow. Maybe these things are even remotely plausible. Triviality with alien races makes so much sense. Thank you... (sob, sob)

quote:

Originally posted by Dork:
My entire family has dreamt of visiting new worlds and would go in a heartbeat.

I'm sure they have, but what of those not born yet? As it has been said, it could take generations to actually get anywhere. Do they not get a say in whether they want to live in space or not? I can't imagine it being fun for everyone, especially kids. Not much of a choice & I KNOW you're all about FREE WILL.

quote:

So, basically, because it offends you, you're going against all the evidence? :/ I'd like to think that being Gay is a choice rather than something you're born with, (I'm on the "Nurture" side of that debate) but the evidence goes against me; denying it would be stupid, the equivalent of saying that my preferences held more weight than research and proof.

I don't know why the things that other people believe so much, offend you. Do I sit & think about evolution? No. Have I read points made on it? Yes. Have they proven that animals can evolve into a human equivalent? Not to me. There are no examples of this in nature. We have no other animals that are even close to what we are. THIS is my point:

quote:

Originally posted by MajorNougat in the 'Friendly Talk on Religion' Thread:
The basic idea is that it IS pretty amazing that we and pretty much only we have managed to evolve this kind of difference. You can come closer to seeing a natural progression towards flight, scales, fur, etc., but there is a slight disconnect when it comes to the intelligence we have, where we've evolved something that nobody, even our closest animal relatives have, an ability that has allowed us to create complex tools and fire, to be so self aware, and to actually be able to rationally debate evolution. While a person could not do these things without the help of other humans to teach us, we have managed to accomplish them as a species, which no other species has really succeeded at.

When someone can truly show me another species that evolved in this manner, I'll have no problem believeing this. However, there are no species that have evolved in this way, therefore it leaves me skeptical. You can believe what you wanna, it doesn't bother me. I have mine & you have yours. The world continues on, whether we agree or not. I'm willing to let it go, why can't you?

quote:

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:

quote:

Originally posted by Dork:
My entire family has dreamt of visiting new worlds and would go in a heartbeat.

I'm sure they have, but what of those not born yet? As it has been said, it could take generations to actually get anywhere. Do they not get a say in whether they want to live in space or not? I can't imagine it being fun for everyone, especially kids. Not much of a choice & I KNOW you're all about FREE WILL.

I don't really believe in free will at all, so you are again wrong, but whatever.

quote:

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:

quote:

So, basically, because it offends you, you're going against all the evidence? :/ I'd like to think that being Gay is a choice rather than something you're born with, (I'm on the "Nurture" side of that debate) but the evidence goes against me; denying it would be stupid, the equivalent of saying that my preferences held more weight than research and proof.

I don't know why the things that other people believe so much, offend you. Do I sit & think about evolution? No. Have I read points made on it? Yes. Have they proven that animals can evolve into a human equivalent? Not to me. There are no examples of this in nature. We have no other animals that are even close to what we are. THIS is my point:

quote:

Originally posted by MajorNougat in the 'Friendly Talk on Religion' Thread:
The basic idea is that it IS pretty amazing that we and pretty much only we have managed to evolve this kind of difference. You can come closer to seeing a natural progression towards flight, scales, fur, etc., but there is a slight disconnect when it comes to the intelligence we have, where we've evolved something that nobody, even our closest animal relatives have, an ability that has allowed us to create complex tools and fire, to be so self aware, and to actually be able to rationally debate evolution. While a person could not do these things without the help of other humans to teach us, we have managed to accomplish them as a species, which no other species has really succeeded at.

When someone can truly show me another species that evolved in this manner, I'll have no problem believeing this. However, there are no species that have evolved in this way, therefore it leaves me skeptical. You can believe what you wanna, it doesn't bother me. I have mine & you have yours. The world continues on, whether we agree or not. I'm willing to let it go, why can't you?

Chimps use tools actually.

quote:

Originally posted by Dork:
I don't really believe in free will at all, so you are again wrong, but whatever.

That's why I put "know" in bold letters. You just don't understand levity, do ya?

quote:

Chimps use tools actually.

You are completely missing my point.

quote:

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:

quote:

Originally posted by Dork:
I don't really believe in free will at all, so you are again wrong, but whatever.

That's why I put "know" in bold letters. You just don't understand levity, do ya?

When it's used well.

quote:

Originally posted by Moenkey_Boy:

quote:

Chimps use tools actually.

You are completely missing my point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your entire argument against the evolution of humankind can be summed but simply:

"Because we are so different now, we must have always been different."

quote:

Originally posted by Lucre:
This article is absolutely fascinating. Ti's like, wow. Maybe these things are even remotely plausible. Triviality with alien races makes so much sense. Thank you... (sob, sob)

Well...poor phrasing maybe. Example: when they had those big orange "gates" up in NYC, my teacher traveled one weekend to see them and then came back. Which strikes me as a lot of effort and money over nothing, but it's what he wanted to do and he did it because flight is not that big a deal to us. All I meant was, they're not just advanced enough to come here, they're really, really, REALLY advanced past that.

Wait, wait, wait! This is the UFO discussion! Should we all close this up and move back to the religion thread, or are we going to talk about UFOs? Or at least something kind of related, like human interplanetary travel?

Just to state my position on this since I haven't yet.

I don't really believe in little green men from outer space. I tend to think that the existence of life on Earth is so incredibly improbable by chance through evolutionary means that it's just that much more incredibly improbable to occur elsewhere, especially given the circumstances that allow life on Earth.

(Hardcore atheists be warned. You may want to skip the rest of this post… but read if you like.)

As you know, I believe we were created. I believe we were created with a special purpose, unlike anything else on Earth. That goes for the universe as well. I don't believe we are animals. I also don't believe any animal-type creatures live on other planets either.

You may think I give us humans and our little planet way too much importance in the scheme of the universe. Well, with importance comes great responsibility. What we do with our lives matters. How we live with each other, how we treat animals, how we take care of our natural resources, and so on is important. Part of our purpose in this life is to be good stewards of this world.

Since I believe in the Bible and its authority, I take it at its word when it describes humans as a unique creation, and God's most special creation. The Bible says nothing about life on other planets. It does speak alot about angels and demons. There are also some passages that describe things in ways similar to how eyewitnesses describe UFOs.

Do I then believe that UFOs and "aliens" are from the spiritual realm beyond this universe? I'm not sure. I'm in no position to say, as I know little about the subject and have never witnessed anything myself. I do tend to take most people at their word, especially when there are large numbers of them giving similar accounts. I believe these people have seen and/or experienced something out of the ordinary. The same goes for other religions. I believe there is something real in each of them. However, I disagree on their source. I see a common link in non-Christian religions and this topic. I'll quit before I open up a new can of worms.

This really does belong in the religion thread, but it's kind of cool to have it's own.

Hahaha, SDF, not giving up on UFOs in the religion thread?

I don’t mean to pick on you, Monkey_Boy, but you are the most vocal person on these forums; you’re a target. ;-)

I appreciate that you addressed my question, but you didn’t answer it. The question was, what scientific “leaps of faith” are you not skeptical of?

I think medical science will get to the point where organ donors will become obsolete and we’ll be able to grow or synthesize replacement parts for our bodies. Science fiction, I know.

If you are unable to believe that aliens travel space almost freely because of our limited understanding of space travel, what “science fiction” do you believe will eventually become a reality? Do you think that computers will be grafted to (or implanted into) our bodies, connected directly to our brains? Do you think we’ll have floating cars eventually to compensate for the limitations of “floor space” and maintenance required on conventional roadways? Will we construct underwater cities in an attempt to combat overpopulation?

The question is critical in identifying where your vision lies (or if you have any) in the abilities of mankind with respect to science. I’m basically trying to see if you’ll concede a little and open up a slippery slope to expose a huge illogical bias in your opinion. ;-)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Echolocating,

You have a problem with wordiness, don't you?

quote:

Originally posted by Echolocating:
I don’t mean to pick on you, Monkey_Boy, but you are the most vocal person on these forums; you’re a target. ;-)

What can I say? I'm basically disabled & have no choice but to sit in a recliner with a keyboard on my lap & the computer screen cocked in my direction. I ain't got nothin' better to do, might as well disagree with everyone ! You know, stir up the Kool-Aid !

quote:

I appreciate that you addressed my question, but you didn’t answer it. The question was, what scientific “leaps of faith” are you not skeptical of?

OH! Sorry, I did keep it vague by just saying, "Well, just the things that I can't seem to make sense." Okay, let's see. I believe dinosaurs walked the Earth. I do see evolution in animals (I just don't see it taking them where it took us), & in our appearance (Just not from a mindless ape-like creature). I agree that it's been possible to synthesize body part's (rat with an ear on its back, anyone?) I can picture flying cars, but I would see them as a priviledge only emergency vehicles can have (If we think car accidents are a tad dangerous, imagine having a fender bender in the sky. It could be fatal once those cars plummett to the ground! The death rate would be 100%!). I believe the Earth is as old as Scientists claim it is (I also still believe the Bible DOESN'T say the Earth is 6,000 years old ) I agree that at some point we'll be implanted with microchips (ala "Demolition Man") that you MUST have in order to spend money. (At the same time, I see the microchip as the Mark of the Beast. Too much of a coincidence if you ask me. You know, back of the hand or the forehead? *SHUDDER*) As far as space travel goes, I believe we could make amazing breakthroughs in unmanned missions, but as far as taking living people up there for a lifetime...those would have to be some dedicated people. Even astronauts miss their home while in space & to set out uncertain of where you'll be headed...seems like it could end up being a waste of time. So they died out in space for nothing!

quote:

I’m basically trying to see if you’ll concede a little and open up a slippery slope to expose a huge illogical bias in your opinion. ;-)

Go ahead, pick away & let's have some fun!