Overall baseball umps are pretty good.

(Especially compared to NBA refs nowadays, how it becomes obvious some players get more leeway than others, such as Reggie Miller's sticking his leg out to draw fouls..and the number of fouls per game is skyrocketting to record levels.)

But once in a while they miss a BIG call. For instance, until the 2004 ALCS I was still bitter about the two consecutive games in the 1999 ALCS when obviously bad calls went against the Sox, late in the game, when they were down by 1 or 2 with players in scoring position and Nomar coming up. I'm not saying they would have won those games, but...well, we'll never know, will we?

I mean...if an out is called when the first baseman's foot is three feet away from the base, or if a runner is called out even though he obviously missed the tag by over a foot...ick.

And then there's that 1997 divisional series game when the Orioles needed one more game to beat the Yankees and the kid reached his hand out over the wall to catch a fly ball, that was called a home run...(The Yankees won the World Series that year, if I recall...even though if that kid didn't reach over the wall, they would have lost in the divisionals.)

Bad calls are going to happen, no matter what, the refs being human and all. But it's just unfortunate when the bad calls seem to routinely favor the same team in pivotal moments of playoff games.

I think the field calls are good, but I'm seeing some radically inconsistent strike zones this year. As long as the umps don't push the confrontations (by following players off the field, standing menacingly near the dugout), I don't mind the occasional bad call. I just wish the strike zones were more consistent...throughout the Cards/Royals series, pitches that were 6 inches outside were strikes. I realize they have a different vantage point (I've umpired for Little League) but these were REALLY BAD CALLS. Repeatedly.

But, I guess I'll take human error over that machine-guided strike zone reader they tried out a few years ago...

There has been a lot of mention of ESPN on the replays coming to Major League Baseball. I am a proponent for this idea, because it will make the important calls, the right ones. I don't want to know that a team lost because a ref was unable to see the play clearly. Clearly, there would have to be standards in place so as to not slow down play too much but I think that it would be beneficial for the league to implement replays.

I'm adamantly opposed to instant replay. The game is slow enough as it is. Seriously, games routinely take 3 hours. If the game is determined by a bad call, and an extremely close one at that, then that means the team's were so evenly matched that just about anything could've determined the outcome. Also, the field umpires rarely blow calls, and while I realize some umpire's strike zones have taken on odd shapes, replay would not be used for that kind of call.

I think I would consider replay on fair/foul calls though. They don't happen very often, so it wouldn't hold up the game much, and that's a really tough call to make, maybe the hardest in the game.

I think replay on fair/foul and fan interference is justified. I'm not sure I'd like to see it on the basepaths or balls/strikes, despite the inconsistent strike zones I've been seeing.

This thread has been dead this year, just like the Dodgers after the first two weeks. But hey, it's the Playoffs! I'm sure somebody has something to say! Go Angels!!

Welcome back, Reggie Sanders! We've missed you!

I was at the game (sitting just feet from the collision) where Reggie got hurt...it's nice to see those 6 RBI's in the playoffs!

Go Cardinals...

I have my doubts that BoSox can outslug and outpitch the ChiSox, although my distaste for Ozzie Guillen has me rooting for Boston.

What I'm REALLY rooting for, tho, is a Braves/Cards NLCS so I can see my beloved Redbirds in some playoff games here in the ATL...

quote:

Originally posted by philosopherEric:
Welcome back, Reggie Sanders! We've missed you!

I was at the game (sitting just feet from the collision) where Reggie got hurt...it's nice to see those 6 RBI's in the playoffs!

Go Cardinals...

I have my doubts that BoSox can outslug and outpitch the ChiSox, although my distaste for Ozzie Guillen has me rooting for Boston.

What I'm REALLY rooting for, tho, is a Braves/Cards NLCS so I can see my beloved Redbirds in some playoff games here in the ATL...

I guess that's a nice feature of Braves playoff games...plenty of seats available! I am actually a diehard White Sox so I'm watching through my fingers! Last night's game was almost too much in the 9th.

This Angels/Yankees series is pretty exciting. Knock on wood.

Now that Boston is out (I think they're empircally the better team, but they played really badly when it counted), I'm only going to be rooting for the Not-Yankees.

Or the White Sox. I want the White Sox to win the world series just for irony's sake that they did it the year after the Red Sox.

(Next year the Cubs have to win).

Well, there's no way to find out if the Angels could have won that game, but officially, MLB and the ChiSox advocate cheating to get the advantage. I understand that many teams cheat, including my faves, but that was the most pathetic, most unbelieveable thing I've EVER seen in a baseball game. There are OFFICIALLY no more rules in baseball! The Sox will regret this, I hope. I felt for them before, but no longer.

That call last night in the White Sox game was terrible. Overall, my picks are the Sox v. the Cards they seems like the better two teams. I am just happy that I don't have to sit through another BoSox v. Yankees matchup, MLB and ESPN have stretched that as far as it can go.

My Red Sox just didn't have the pitching to compete inthe playoffs this year. The rumor is that Manny is demanding a trade, so maybe they can get some pitching out of him. Or sign AJ Burnett.

I'm really surprised at that call. How could the first or third base umpire at least not see that that ball didn't bounce? Really poor.

I'm rooting for the Angels now just because I like Mike Sciosca so much. He's my favorite MLB manager easily. If they can't win I'm pulling for the Astros because I like a lot of their players and because I can't stand the two other teams. Ozzie Guillen is the biggest asshat in the league.

That call was bad on several fronts:

1. It was wrong. He caught the ball, plain as day. RL is correct in pointing out that one of the FIVE other umps on the field should have seen that.

2. Why can umps have different physical calls for 'swing and miss' and 'strike' and 'out'? I don't understand why their is no uniform call for out that doesn't rely on the verbal call. That ump clearly made what I interpret as 'out' although he claims that just meant strike three. The catcher should have tagged the batter as a matter of habit but I thought that was clearly an 'out' call. I saw no evidence that the ump had a separate and distinct 'out' call...what if they players can't HEAR the verbal out call because of crowd noise? Terrible call, terrible of MLB to tolerate this kind of lack of signal consistency among umps.

3. RL: you're so right. Guillen is an asshat...he was as a player and he is as a manager. And he's got some asshat players on his team: Pierzynski, Carl Everett, Frank Thomas. I hope the drought continues for his Sox.

quote:

Originally posted by mark f:
Well, there's no way to find out if the Angels could have won that game, but officially, MLB and the ChiSox advocate cheating to get the advantage. I understand that many teams cheat, including my faves, but that was the most pathetic, most unbelieveable thing I've EVER seen in a baseball game. There are OFFICIALLY no more rules in baseball! The Sox will regret this, I hope. I felt for them before, but no longer.

Ok, I am a die-hard White Sox fan and I agree it was a bad call, but I am not quite sure how the Sox cheated. Are you talking about Pierzynski taking off to first? If so, I would hardly call that cheating. I played baseball through high school and was always taught that if you see the catcher's mit in the dirt on a third strike, take off and let the ump rule if it bounced or was dropped. I know Pierzynski took off a little late, but at that point I think the ump's arm was out which looked like he was indicating a third strike. It was not till Pierzynski was down the line a bit that the ump made a fist which looked like he was indicating an out. Again, I agree he blew the call, but I wouldn't say the Sox cheated. If this is not what you mean, please clarify for me.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: PRG,

RL, I think the Red Sox had a lot of pitchers capable of pitching really well, or really poorly on any given day. Some better rolls of the dice in that regard I think they could have competed.

--

Really, I couldn't tell based on the replays if the ball hit the dirt or not. It really was too close for the ref to be reasonably able to tell. But here's what the ref did wrong:

The ref did the 'Out' motion with his hand, and then took it back, *after* the catcher had already started rolling the ball back to the pitcher's mound. If he had just said 'No catch' or 'Ball in play', the catcher would have easily been able to throw the runner out at first. The ref may have made a bad call, but it wasn't nearly as bad as miscommunicating the call after.

I wouldn't go as far as to say 'The MLB advocates cheating' though. Just, it doesn't think there's a problem with loophole exploitations. Just like the NHL players have learned to take dives, and Reggie Miller got bogus foul calls by sticking out his leg during jumpshots, MLB players learn to run if there's any doubt the ball was caught.

quote:

Originally posted by PRG:

quote:

Originally posted by mark f:
Well, there's no way to find out if the Angels could have won that game, but officially, MLB and the ChiSox advocate cheating to get the advantage. I understand that many teams cheat, including my faves, but that was the most pathetic, most unbelieveable thing I've EVER seen in a baseball game. There are OFFICIALLY no more rules in baseball! The Sox will regret this, I hope. I felt for them before, but no longer.

Ok, I am a die-hard White Sox fan and I agree it was a bad call, but I am not quite sure how the Sox cheated. Are you talking about Pierzynski taking off to first? If so, I would hardly call that cheating. I played baseball through high school and was always taught that if you see the catcher's mit in the dirt on a third strike, take off and let the ump rule if it bounced or was dropped. I know Pierzynski took off a little late, but at that point I think the ump's arm was out which looked like he was indicating a third strike. It was not till Pierzynski was down the line a bit that the ump made a fist which looked like he was indicating an out. Again, I agree he blew the call, but I wouldn't say the Sox cheated. If this is not what you mean, please clarify for me.

Since I posted shortly after the game, I pretty much said what I felt at the time. I think the umps are responsible for what happened. The Sox won the game, fair-and-square, based on their opportunity. I still think that due to the homeplate ump's lack of control of the situation that he got "conned" by Pierzynski into making the call the way he did.

I played a lot of ball when I was younger too. I know you're supposed to do everything you can to win for the team. I always tried to be fair about it though. My sportsmanship was often frowned upon by teammates and managers. That's probably why I quit playing organized ball.

quote:

Originally posted by mark f:

quote:

Originally posted by PRG:

quote:

Originally posted by mark f:
Well, there's no way to find out if the Angels could have won that game, but officially, MLB and the ChiSox advocate cheating to get the advantage. I understand that many teams cheat, including my faves, but that was the most pathetic, most unbelieveable thing I've EVER seen in a baseball game. There are OFFICIALLY no more rules in baseball! The Sox will regret this, I hope. I felt for them before, but no longer.

Ok, I am a die-hard White Sox fan and I agree it was a bad call, but I am not quite sure how the Sox cheated. Are you talking about Pierzynski taking off to first? If so, I would hardly call that cheating. I played baseball through high school and was always taught that if you see the catcher's mit in the dirt on a third strike, take off and let the ump rule if it bounced or was dropped. I know Pierzynski took off a little late, but at that point I think the ump's arm was out which looked like he was indicating a third strike. It was not till Pierzynski was down the line a bit that the ump made a fist which looked like he was indicating an out. Again, I agree he blew the call, but I wouldn't say the Sox cheated. If this is not what you mean, please clarify for me.

Since I posted shortly after the game, I pretty much said what I felt at the time. I think the umps are responsible for what happened. The Sox won the game, fair-and-square, based on their opportunity. I still think that due to the homeplate ump's lack of control of the situation that he got "conned" by Pierzynski into making the call the way he did.

I played a lot of ball when I was younger too. I know you're supposed to do everything you can to win for the team. I always tried to be fair about it though. My sportsmanship was often frowned upon by teammates and managers. That's probably why I quit playing organized ball.

I noticed what time you wrote it and I figured you were venting more than anything. I know what you mean about sportsmanship though, it unfortunately takes a backseat more often than not.

Far from cheating, I give Pierzynski a lot of credit for what he did. It was smart, heads up ball...although ESPN showed him getting conned by Bronson Arroyo on the same play while catching for the Giants last year.

All A.J. did was run to first. If the umpire was conned by that move, it was a clever, heads up play. The Angels catcher (third backup) should have tagged the batter regardless, but it was still a bad call and mostly the fault of the ump.

quote:

Originally posted by philosopherEric:
Far from cheating, I give Pierzynski a lot of credit for what he did. It was smart, heads up ball...although ESPN showed him getting conned by Bronson Arroyo on the same play while catching for the Giants last year.

All A.J. did was run to first. If the umpire was conned by that move, it was a clever, heads up play. The Angels catcher (third backup) should have tagged the batter regardless, but it was still a bad call and mostly the fault of the ump.

That's exactly how I feel. Like I said, I'm a Sox fan, so I'm happy they won, but I wish it would have been a little more decisive.