Is this new? I can't even remember. I DO remember pE and LT commenting on their pets, and now I have to, again. For anyone who paid attention, my 16 1/2 year-old cat Velvet died recently and I was there to "help her pass", but then two days later, my wife, who had never even had a cat the first 30+ years of her life, shows up with a stray from her school, so now we have a new six-month-old Ulysses (named after Brenda's school, U.S. Grant), and we just have to make sure that Kiki, my six-year-old Akita mix, doesn't eat him or at least break his neck. Wow, pets.....

I'm sorry for your loss Mark. As for me, I am not much of an animal person, but I have a Chocolate Lab named Cocoa.

We've got 3 pets...

A 6 year old retired racing Greyhound named Arnie.

A 13 year old Maltese, a true lap dog, named Tutu. (My wife is an ex-ballet dancer)

A 3 year old short haired cat who has a strange affinity for biting ankles, named Maximus (after one of my favorite popes)

It is amazing how emotionally invested we can get in our pets, creatures that Descartes once described as "soulless machines." I, too, am sorry for your loss, mark.

Thanks a lot, Mike and pE.

Have you had other cats, pE? This new one will bite my ankles at the drop of my invisible hat, but it loves me and purrs up a storm all the time because, after all, he knows who feeds him, or at least which side the bread's buttered.

These pets obviouly feel love, pain, jealousy, etc. I don't know if Descartes ever said something more rational because otherwise he's playing "the God made us like him trump card" which allows humans to treat them as "things" which aren't alive. My pets, for at least 45 years which I can remember, have always been part of my family. It kinda makes me wonder why I'm not a vegie... P.S. I'm listening to "Nature Boy" off of Nick Cave/BS "Abattoir Blues", and I think you guys, especially pE, would love it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mark f,

Well, my dog who was 17 years old and my parents had before I was born, died right before we moved out to California this past summer. We've been wanting to get another but its just been too hard so far. Right now we have no pets, but throughout my life I've had two fish (both died), two parakeets (one died, one flew away), and a Guinea pig and a rabbit (we gave them away cuz they kept pooping all over the house)

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Guinea pig and a rabbit (we gave them away cuz they kept pooping all over the house)

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Those are the worst pets ever. I remember when I was about six and had one. We ended up doing the same thing.

I had a dog that we had to put to sleep at the age of 15, named ollie...he had liver failure...R.I.P. Ollie, i love you!

I also used to have hampsters..the mother had babies..my youngest sister was playing with them and "forgot" to put then back in the cage...well, my mom didn't know and next thing you know...::suck::..up the vacuum cleaner they went! oh, poor things...

I had a cockateal (ugh, spelling)..and two parakeets..they all died of natural causes...but the weird thing is..the two parakeets were both found dead at the same time (they were brother and sister and shared a cage)...we thought maybe the one died/killed itself, because of the other dying...who knows?!

Now, we are left with two Dwarf rabbits..the one is albino and scares anyone that sees it..also bits everyone..(those red eyes are FREAKY)..and the other is so cute!!

thats about it for me!

I, too, am sorry about Velvet, mark... We had a schnazuer (sp?) who we had to put to sleep at about 16 years old. We were all so broken up about the loss of this dog that we haven't been able to get another one since, and that was like 10 years ago. This dog was so smart/loyal that it could almost read your mind... If you wanted him to jump up on your lap, you could almost just wink at this dog or nod your head to the side, and he's was there. At the same time, he wasn't clingy like some of these "lapdogs" that my sister loves -- like those Bichon Frizes (sp?). When my mom sees a picture of our old dog, she still cries.

I actually don't necessarily agree that dogs feel love, but they certainly know affection and caring, and they can return that affection. I remember discussing this with a priest in catholic school (theology class - 10th grade, I think), and he argued that love requires a choice, and dogs don't have a choice in the matter. I'm sure 90% of pet owners would disagree with me, and that's cool. Tough question. The important thing is that dogs & cats bring so much happiness to so many...gotta love 'em!

Weird Fact of the Night: Mexico City is one of the smoggiest cities in the world. What is the primary element of the smog in that city?? Dog crap! It's true. There are so many stray dogs in the city, and their waste dries up and gets kicked up into the wind, thus adding to the smog. Weird, huh??? There was a campaign down there a few years back to round up a bunch of these poor dogs in order to clean up the air.

My family has one Cat and one Dog.

The Cat is some variation of siamese, and happens to own everyone's souls.

The Dog is about as dumb as they come, and for that very reason, about as lovable as they come, too.

But the cat owns his soul, too.

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Originally posted by mark f:
For anyone who paid attention, my 16 1/2 year-old cat Velvet died recently and I was there to "help her pass", but then two days later, my wife, who had never even had a cat the first 30+ years of her life, shows up with a stray from her school, so now we have a new six-month-old Ulysses (named after Brenda's school, U.S. Grant), and we just have to make sure that Kiki, my six-year-old Akita mix, doesn't eat him or at least break his neck. Wow, pets.....

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Mark, I realize I had forgotten to extend my condolences on your loss. I know how hard it is, but I'm so happy to hear of the new addition to your household.

Our cat situation is a strange one. My wife's came into our relationship with a cat named Andromeda (Andy). Andy is honestly the smartest cat I have ever known. They had been each other's only for some time, so Andy wasn't so sure she wanted to share, but she started warming up to me.

Then my folks found a kitten in a busy intersection.

Mojo is about as dumb as Andy is smart. Mojo loves Andy. Andy hates Mojo. Andy knows who's responsible for bringing Mojo home. Nearly eight years later, Andy is just starting to forgive me.

Aside from being generally dopey, Mojo is also beg. Really big. Nearly eighteen pounds at one point. He was heavy at that point, but could actually carry it pretty well, he's so big.

Needless to say his appetite has always been healthy and his range of tastes strangely varied. At various time he has eaten:

coffee beans
asparagus
tofu
spinach
porter (yes, the beer)

And a variety of other things not usually associated with cats.

They're strange. We love them. Our lives would be immeasurably poorer without them.

Now Playing: "The Rite of Spring" Igor Stravinsky (perf. Paavo Jarvi/Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra)

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Originally posted by mark f:
Thanks a lot, Mike and pE.

Have you had other cats, pE? This new one will bite my ankles at the drop of my invisible hat, but it loves me and purrs up a storm all the time because, after all, he knows who feeds him, or at least which side the bread's buttered.

These pets obviouly feel love, pain, jealousy, etc. I don't know if Descartes ever said something more rational because otherwise he's playing "the God made us like him trump card" which allows humans to treat them as "things" which aren't alive. My pets, for at least 45 years which I can remember, have always been part of my family. It kinda makes me wonder why I'm not a vegie... P.S. I'm listening to "Nature Boy" off of Nick Cave/BS "Abattoir Blues", and I think you guys, especially pE, would love it.

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First off, mark, I'm still waiting on the Nick Cave. I put it on my Xmas list, so I can't buy it for myself until after the holidays. But what I've heard sounded great.

Secondly, my ankle biter is also quite fond of sitting on my lap, purring like an old car engine, and loving like there was no tomorrow. I think he's just a schizo cat...

It's funny I read this today...I'm teaching a section on the moral arguments for vegetarianism in my Intro class today. It's a topic that evokes great conflict in me...I understand all of the arguments, and find them mostly quite convincing and sound, but yet I still eat meat. SOME meat. Mostly fish and chicken, with occasional pork and beef. I think I could go veggie pretty easily, but my wife is a carnivore and I don't think I could convince her to follow me.

Then, finally, there's the question of the "souls" of animals. Descartes' statement was based mostly on his mind/body dualism...humans have both mind/soul and body, while animals are merely bodies, responding physically to stimuli in the environment. RayRay makes a good point...maybe you need to have to CHOOSE to love, and maybe animals are incapable of that kind of choice. I work closely with a lot of philosophers who work in cognitive neuroscience...smart people who know a LOT about animal and human brains. One of them, a good friend, lost his dog a year ago, and was completely shattered by it for a few days. We were commisserating at our Thursday bowling night, and he looked at me and said "I don't know how something so dumb and machine-like can become so human to me."

That, to me, was enough to answer the question...it doesn't matter whether or not the DO have souls, or CHOOSE us...all that matters is that we think they might (or do).

There's a really cool book on this called The Philosopher's Dog by Raymond Gaita. He's an Oxford philosopher whose love of his animals leads him to struggle with some of the views he might otherwise hold true. It's a good read, even if you're not into philosophy. It's also about the love of one's pets.

I wasn't trying to turn the discussion TOO deep, but I actually like the direction some of it is taking. RayRay and pE discussing choice in the context of understanding and giving love made me think a bit ("dangerous pastime, I know.")

Based on that idea, human babies, from birth to an incalculable age, are incapable of love because they don't have a choice either. Then, I started extrapolating out, considering that some humans have either never been shown love (aside from the creature comforts we give to pets) or never been shown that there's actually a choice between love and lack of love. My thoughts led me to believe that, based on a pseudo-hypothesis concerning pets, some humans are incapable of love even as adults, whether through being deprived of it, or perhaps, from never being exposed to anything else. If you only give someone love and they learn that, can they love you in return if they don't have the "choice" not to love?

Anyhow, that's what you guys got me thinking. Am I on to something, or have I burnt my toast..umm...brain too much? Or do we toss the hypothesis concerning choice? Or do we toss me?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mark f,

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Originally posted by mark f:


Based on that idea, human babies, from birth to an incalculable age, are incapable of love because they don't have a choice either. Then, I started extrapolating out, considering that some humans have either never been shown love (aside from the creature comforts we give to pets) or never been shown that there's actually a choice between love and lack of love. My thoughts led me to believe that, based on a pseudo-hypothesis concerning pets, some humans are incapable of love even as adults, whether through being deprived of it, or perhaps, from never being exposed to anything else. If you only give someone love and they learn that, can they love you in return if they don't have the "choice" not to love?

Anyhow, that's what you guys got me thinking. Am I on to something, or have I burnt my toast..umm...brain too much? Or do we toss the hypothesis concerning choice? Or do we toss me?

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I think the answer is supposed to be that, despite facts of "moral luck," the major difference is that, at some point, humans (at a certain age) are capable of CHOOSING whether or not they want to love, in some real sense. It may not be entirely in our control, but you can, for instance, give up on a friend or family member. Animals merely respond to stimuli, and don't CHOOSE how they do it. To put it in Kant's terms, it's our rational nature that makes us different. And Kant felt we had no duties to animals...our duties to treat animals well were indirect duties to man (because those who are cruel to animals will become cruel to man, and that's unacceptable).

But, as you point out, there may be a sense in which humans DON'T choose whether or not to love. Those who receive love may be unable to refuse to love back...those who don't receive love may never have the ability TO love.

If this is true, however, we're all merely victims of fate and chance and circumstance, there's not a lot of room for free will, and we really aren't all that different from animals. I know a lot of people who feel that way...but I know almost as many who find that thought completely unacceptable.

Yes, pE, it puts everything into that larger picture of faith (not that I believe my Kiki or Ulysses may partake.) It just reminds me, dealing with pets and my own daughter, how stubborn everyone is. I put myself ahead of them...I've had a lot more experience at being stubborn than they have. Everyone has to be taught how they behave and what they believe by someone else. For most kids, it's their parents. For most pets, it's their owners (or is that ownees?) I'm just thinking for "the children of God", if there is such a thing, it's God, but stubbornness is not an attractive trait, in reality, for any "child." It tends to reflect bad parenting.

I got a cat. I have always liked cats better than dogs, but having a cat just confirms that for me. I like dogs as well, but there is just something really cool about a reserved animal, where as dogs depend upon their "Masters."

We got a new puppy this past Christmas. My dad was just looking around the pet store (we decided never to buy from a pet store) and saw the cutest Shitzu. He went to leave the store but couldn't leave without the puppy. His name is Bentley and next thing you know, my dad is walking out of the store with Bentley in a dog cage!

He is so cute, but he still has some bad habits. Such as humping (one more month till he gets fixed). But he already sits...doesn't use the house as a personal bathroom...and doesn't bite our body parts anymore...haha, i remember when he bit my dad in the face. It didn't do anything cause he was still very small..but, my dad was pissed.

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Originally posted by Heather:
He is so cute, but he still has some bad habits. Such as humping (one more month till he gets fixed).

It won't stop. Ever.

I have a doggie named Tobie, and he's a pitbull mixed with a basset hound. He's got brown and black short hair, a white nose, boxer face, basset hound legs (they stick outward) and a white tipped tail. We won a fish long time ago, and we figured it would die just like all the other 'prize fish' but for some reason this guy's still living. It's true what they say about a fish and it's tank. The larger the tank, the larger it grows. Then I have a rabbit, his name is Carmel, but he's kinda evil cause we didn't knock of his balls.

In response to Heather, dogs will usually always hump OTHER dogs, but to clear up m.leland's statement, they will stop humping you and other objects after getting fixed. Also, it depends on the dog, some are more ..."frisky" than others.

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Originally posted by Nickel-Z:
In response to Heather, dogs will usually always hump OTHER dogs, but to clear up m.leland's statement, they will stop humping you and other objects after getting fixed. Also, it depends on the dog, some are more ..."frisky" than others.

Depending on when the dog gets fixed, some dogs never grow out of the humping, even AFTER the fixin'. And some FEMALE dogs will hump things after they get fixed. We had a girl dog, totally fixed, who would ride one of her toys for an hour at a time.