quote:

Originally posted by mark f:
I was an air traffic controller for five years. No, nobody was shooting at me for those five years, but it sure felt like it for a combined two weeks of the year.

Mark, some time you need to give us the whole story behind your switch from air-traffic controller to teacher. You've mentioned it before, but I'd love to hear the long version.

The issue isn't whether the world *likes* the US. It doesn't matter how popular Joe Blow American feels on his European vacation.

I was talking about *trust* and diplomatic relations, on the level of interacting governments. The Iraq war is having a ripple effect, altering the way countries prefer to do business with the US, as well as other facets of int'l relations more benign than war. It's that much harder for the US to accomplish anything that requires cooperative thought and communication with other nations. It's not so easy for us to get our foot in the door.

I'll try to find an article that better illustrates what I'm trying to say...

Regarding US troops and inappropriate behavior, it would stand to reason that the news is only catching a part of the problem. I have a lot of respect for the men and women who enlist in the military, but assuming that they can do no wrong is silly.

quote:

Originally posted by paxsoprano:
The key question then seems to be, what now? I'm really perplexed by the people who want the US to withdraw immediately. Do they really think Iraq would improve?

No, Pax. It’s not about improving the situation… it’s about getting out of there before they make things worse. How could things get worse? I guess we’ll find out soon enough because the US will never leave while all that oil is there.

quote:

Originally posted by paxsoprano:
I guess I just have a higher opinion of military personnel than you do. Do you actually know any soldiers RL? The ones I know don't strike me as the raping/murdering type.

I don’t think you personally knowing a handful (if even that) of US military personnel means anything in this context, Pax. I don’t think that would “hold up in a court of law”. ;-) But seriously, Pax, being critical of situations involving the military has nothing to do having a lower opinion of the personnel.

quote:

Originally posted by paxsoprano:
And btw democracy is hardly a cure-all…
…can a US occupation reverse the backwardness of a fundamental Muslim culture? I don't see how.

Then what is the US trying to do then? If they shouldn’t withdraw, and reversing the obvious “backwardness” of Muslim culture isn’t possible… then what’s left to do?

Pax, it’s good to see that any criticism of the US still gets you going. We need that opposing energy to keep these threads interesting. ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by Commontone:
It's that much harder for the US to accomplish anything that requires cooperative thought and communication with other nations. It's not so easy for us to get our foot in the door.

I think for relations with countries not bordering the US, things may get worse… but with Canada, for example, the US would pretty much have to bomb us for our relations to change. That softwood lumber tax was probably more jarring for Canada on political relations than any misguided foreign, overseas war has ever been. Though that’s just my opinion.

I never said that US soldiers do no wrong, or that my knowing a few soldiers was proof of anything. All I said was that a) there is no reason to think the US army is worse than other armies when it comes to doing illegal things, b) an overwhelming majority of US soldiers are good people, and c) there would have to be a whole hell of a lot of US-against-Iraqi violence to offset the damage that would be done to the country if we disappeared tomorrow.

Cody, I mentioned my worry about whether we can reverse the backwardness of the Muslim culture because it is a legitimate concern I have about this war. Can we really turn the Middle East into a democracy? I don't know. Go back to America's independence...the French helped us fight off the English, but Americans already wanted democracy. Do run-of-the-mill Iraqi's (or other Muslim residents of Middle Eastern countries) want democracy? I'd certainly like to think so, but watching them elect Hezbollah and follow Ahmadinejad in Iran...part of me wants to say, fuck 'em--blow yourselves apart.

I agree that it's pretty sad to see Hezbollah elected to power, but I think it's pretty obvious that their election is a direct result of the violence and aggression directed toward parts of teh Arab world by the West. I mean, when the US got attacked on 9-11, what was the immediate reaction of the population? It was to favor war and violence. Putting aside for now the question of whether that was the right response, that was the response. And that's always going to be the response in just about any country--especially countries with low education levels. When a country or people is subject to violence or ill will, it's response is always going to be to respond with violence and ill will in return.

This is not some form of backwardness unique to Arab countries, it's a universal human trait. When their country is attacked, people's response is always to huddle behind a "strong" leader and to retaliate. The Middle East is no different than the US in this respect.

Eh, I think we agree RL, but you are misrepresenting facts. Sure we invaded Iraq, but you can hardly compare our invasion to the 9/11 attacks. The Iraqi people didn't like Saddam, but they also don't like us very much and have no long term vision for democracy. This latter part is the real problem.